Electric meter conversion to wireless, I doubt this could be safe

Do you have a cell phone? It emits enough power to be received 20 miles away, and transmits bursts 20+ times a second when you are talking.

The electronic meters send messages to a concentrator that is no more than about 2 blocks away, every few minutes. Generally, the concentrators send the data to a central site directly, through a second antenna on it.

There are 50 KW radio stations in almost every town, and TV stations (now all in the UHF band) running 100KW - 500KW output. It seems ridiculous to complain about these meters, when people are using cell phones, bluetooth, and all manner of other devices that radiate far more energy.

Jon

You could get a roll of aluminium foil and wallpaper the wall between the meters and the bedroom.

Depending on how careful you are with the joins you could achieve a very low field strength. This is probably counterproductive as it may attenuate cellphone signals and thereby cause the cellphones that the children are using to ramp up the transmitters to maximum power right on their heads.

There's a good chance that you may already have the foil in place. Some construction uses foil backed fiberglass insulation. In the roof, there's foil backed foam board and glass wool.

Nope, that doesn't work. Aluminum foil reflects RF and sends it in some other direction. Put foil in the walls and you could just as easily increase the RF field strength as decrease it. For example, the corners of a room make a nice 90 degree corner reflector antenna.

Instead what you need is an RF absorber, not a reflector. Carbon foam is good. A wet towel will also work. Anything that absorbs RF.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
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Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

We received a notice from the power company that they intend to replace our two electric meters with the new wireless units. These meters emit short bursts of RF multiple times a day at a fairly substantial RF level. These transmissions are received by a "collector" which is apparently mounted on a utility pole on the street. This data is sent to a receiver and computer in a power company truck as it drives by and returned to their office where it's downloaded and bills are generated. Great for the power company but not for the meter readers. There are people all over the country up in arms over these things. Some have blocked installations and have been arrested for it.

While it's true that many of them are non technical people who just need something to jump up and down about my grand children sleep in the room adjacent to the meters and I think that I understand a little bit more about this, and it concerns me.

I asked the power company to provide me with more information and initially I was stonewalled until I contacted my state representative who then contacted them for me. Now they're kissing my ass with information but still telling me this is going to happen at some near point in the future.

Has anyone else had to deal with this and can you comment on my safety concerns? If it's true that there is no recourse to them making this modification, to increase the distance squared I've considered moving the meters to a utility pole which is on my property about 75 feet from the house. this would probably have to be at my expense I suspect.

The following is some information about these meters. Some of it I had requested and some extra which they threw in. I know that it's a lot to look at but if you can I'd really appreciate if you guys could please have a look at it and tell me what you think. I'm really concerned about this. Thanks very much. Lenny

Q. I understand these units operate in RF - Radio Frequency. Are they emitting short or long range signals? A: The signal from the meter is transmitted in the range 902-928 MHz (mega-hertz). The reading capability is dependent on a number of variables and cannot be accurately assessed without site specific information, but typically the signal may be received by the meter reading equipment within 1/4 mile or so.

2) Q: Regarding the signal, is it a "Bubble-Up" unit where it is transmitting all the time or is it a "Wake-Up" unit where it transmits when it receives a signal? A: The meter transmits reading data every 30 seconds in a brief milliseconds burst. The manufacturer designed it that way to accommodate any reading schedule required by the utility. The meter is a one-way communication device. The meter would not know when the reading device was going to be in close proximity to the meter, therefore it needs to transmit frequently so that it may be read whenever the reading device is nearby. 3) Q: What frequency and wattage of transmit power is the unit operating at and at what antennae gain? Ex. Unit transmits at 900MHz with 1 watt of transmit power with antennae gain of 0. A: The signal from the meter is transmitted in the range 902-928 mhz (mega-hertz) The maximum power output for the endpoint devices is less than half a watt, while the maximum power output of the collection device is less than 1 watt. In comparison, the average light bulb is 60 watts. Frequency = 909 to 922 MHz Transmit Power = 147 mW (21.67dBm) Antenna Gain = 0 dB. 4) Q: What's the antennae gain at peak power and what wattage is the peak power? Ex. Antennae gain of 4.0 dBi for peak level power of 2.5 watts. A: The maximum power output for the endpoint devices is less than half a watt, while the maximum power output of the collection device is less than 1 watt. In comparison, the average light bulb is 60 watts. Frequency = 908 to 923.8 MHz Transmit Power = 250 mW (24dBm) Antenna Gain = 2.2 dB 5) Q: How many times in total - both average and maximum - is the unit scheduled to transmit during a 24-hr time frame? A: The meter transmits reading data every 30 seconds in a brief milliseconds burst - about 53 milliseconds referred to as the "duty cycle". The total RF transmission time in a 24 hour period is between 1.5 - 2.5 minutes depending on the type of meter and therefore data being transmitted. Signal levels are 1/10th of the "Maximum Permissible Exposure Levels" as defined by the FCC--lower than many everyday appliances and electronic devices around your home, and are only transmitted briefly and periodically rather than constantly. What's the "first hop" technology being used to send? Ex. Mobile Radio Frequencies? Mesh Radio Frequencies? Fixed Radio? A: This is not AMI, this is AMR. There isn't any 'first hop', the data is transmitted to a computer in a vehicle driving nearby and then the computer is returned to the utility at the end of the day and directly connected to the utility internal network and the meter readings are uploaded to utility internal systems. 6) Q: Is this unit considered to be a "Licensed" or "Unlicensed" transmitter by the FCC? A: The meters operate in the unlicensed 902-928 MHz frequency range and the devices are regulated by the FCC. Itron's products are stringently evaluated for RF safety and meet all Federal Communication Commission (FCC), Industry Canada (IC), and Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE) standards. FCC OET Bulletin 65 supplement C Edition 01-01 (known as OET-65C) provides further guidance on determining compliance for portable and mobile devices. 7) Q: Because each unit needs power to run itself, what is the unit's power consumption rate per month? Ex. 2 kW hours? 1kW hours? Also, what would be the additional monthly cost of the power the unit needs to function (based on the # of kW hours it needs to function) as I know you guys just had a rate hike?

meter. Therefore there is no cost difference associated with the running of the AMR meter to your previous meter. We are enhancing our technology to serve you better. Installing AMR meters allows us to continue to provide safe, timely, accurate meter reading but at a lower cost. Controlling costs is an important factor in determining Eversource rates.

8) Q: Does the unit have a battery? What is the battery's life (in years)? A: Yes there is a battery in the unit. The battery's life is the same as the life of the meter which is 20 to 25 years.. For more information pertaining to the AMR C1SR Meter please visit the ITRON website:

Going wireless is easy; just open up the meter and cut all the wires out of it. Job Does...... But it won't work anymore and but it is wireless. ;-))

Shaun

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 11:23:01 AM UTC-4, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote :

ur two electric meters with the new wireless units. These meters emit short bursts of RF multiple times a day at a fairly substantial RF level. These transmissions are received by a "collector" which is apparently mounted on a utility pole on the street. This data is sent to a receiver and computer in a power company truck as it drives by and returned to their office where it's downloaded and bills are generated. Great for the power company but n ot for the meter readers. There are people all over the country up in arms over these things. Some have blocked installations and have been arrested f or it.

something to jump up and down about my grand children sleep in the room adj acent to the meters and I think that I understand a little bit more about t his, and it concerns me.

ly I was stonewalled until I contacted my state representative who then con tacted them for me. Now they're kissing my ass with information but still t elling me this is going to happen at some near point in the future.

ncerns? If it's true that there is no recourse to them making this modifica tion, to increase the distance squared I've considered moving the meters to a utility pole which is on my property about 75 feet from the house. this would probably have to be at my expense I suspect.

quested and some extra which they threw in. I know that it's a lot to look at but if you can I'd really appreciate if you guys could please have a loo k at it and tell me what you think. I'm really concerned about this. Thanks very much. Lenny

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nds burst - about 53 milliseconds referred to as the "duty cycle". The tota l RF transmission time in a 24 hour period is between 1.5 - 2.5 minutes dep ending on the type of meter and therefore data being transmitted. Signal le vels are 1/10th of the "Maximum Permissible Exposure Levels" as defined by the FCC--lower than many everyday appliances and electronic devices around your home, and are only transmitted briefly and periodically rather than co nstantly.

transmitted to a computer in a vehicle driving nearby and then the compute r is returned to the utility at the end of the day and directly connected t o the utility internal network and the meter readings are uploaded to utili ty internal systems.

by the FCC?

he devices are regulated by the FCC. Itron's products are stringently evalu ated for RF safety and meet all Federal Communication Commission (FCC), Ind ustry Canada (IC), and Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IE EE) standards. FCC OET Bulletin 65 supplement C Edition 01-01 (known as OET

-65C) provides further guidance on determining compliance for portable and mobile devices.

consumption rate per month?

ds to function (based on the # of kW hours it needs to function) as I know you guys just had a rate hike?

the meter. Therefore there is no cost difference associated with the runnin g of the AMR meter to your previous meter. We are enhancing our technology to serve you better. Installing AMR meters allows us to continue to provide safe, timely, accurate meter reading but at a lower cost. Controlling cost s is an important factor in determining Eversource rates.

the life of the meter which is 20 to 25 years..

RON website:

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To answer your question Jon, yes I do use a cell phone, but rarely, my gran dchildren are too young to have phones and no you won't find a bluetooth st icking out of my ear. It's also a matter of choice. I choose to use my cell phone and I've chosen not to use wireless or a bluetooth. What the power c ompany is doing is taking away my choice and that's just wrong.

Here in New Hampshire we have a motto. If you Google our license plates yo u'll see it. It reads: "Live free or die". That means something to all of u s. I don't mean to get into a political debate here but really when you boi l it all down regardless of power level, in a free country what right do th ese people have to irradiate me against my will? Lenny

Put this in context. Driving your car is the most dangerous thing you do. Forget about this. Mikek

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I use a cell phone as little as possible. Not sure there really is any risk to it, but I just don't know. The damn things barely work, anyway, the sound quality is awful and the mike and speaker are so close together you can either hear, or be heard, but not both at once.

But, compared to a cell phone, or the now-ubiquitous cell towers, and other transmitters all over, the electric meters are REALLY a minimal contribution.

Well, if you feel strongly enough about it, the only option is have the electrc service taken out!

I think you are going WAY overboard with this "irradiate me" statement. These meters are such a small source of RF, and quite intermittent too. Do you have the right to shut off all cell towers when you happen to be near them? How about broadcast radio and TV? How about various radars operating all over? You may not be aware of how MUCH electromagnetic radiation there is going on from all these sources, but there really is a lot.

Oh, you know those things near the doors of most retail shops that have something to do with deterring ahoplifting? Are you aware these are also radio transmitters that interrogate anti-theft devices in many of the products you buy at the local store? Do the stores even bother to tell anybody what those devices are? You bet they don't tell you!

What I'm trying to point out here is that these meters that you are so concerned about are tiny, compared to the huge "irradiation" you are recieving all day, from a bunch of other sources that you may be totally unaware of.

Jon

Jon Elson: And wait till wireless electric transmission becomes reality. Then what will people do?? ;)

(...)

It is very easy to prove that something is unsafe. All you need is one "victim" and an attorney. Once established, there will soon be an infinite supply of victims, all with their palms raised, demanding their fair share of the proceeds.

It is impossible to prove that something is safe, because there will always be contrived circumstances where it can be made to be unsafe. For example, water is unsafe because at some levels of consumption, you become water intoxicated or will drown. Perfectly safe devices can also be made unsafe by doing something stupid with them, such as ingesting the article.

For RF exposure, the problem is compounded by the wide variety of symptoms allegedly caused by RF exposure ranging from constipation to cancer. Google for "electro sensitive". RF is mostly a problem because we can't see or smell it thus making exposure seem all the more insidious.

For smart meters (and wi-fi), the magic buzzword is "electro smog". Lots of alarmist studies and reports available such as: I'm only familiar with the cancer research, about which I wrote this rant and an associated informal talk: A bit more up to date graph: Details (later) if you want them.

I could probably answer your RF related questions, but so can your local electric utility. Many have web pages on the topic of smart meters. A few have real people you can call or write to get information. Try those first, as it would take many pages of writing for me to produce a personalized answer. If you don't get results, bug me (later) and I'll try to fill in the gaps. For northern California:

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

In California, the Public Utilities Commission has established rules for those wishing to opt out of "Smart Meters" and stay with analog meters. A one time $75 charge and then $10/month for 3 years. After that there's no extra charge. (The $75 +$10/month covers both the wireless electric and natural gas meters - you don't pay $150 + 20/mo if you have both.) The charge is meant to cover the added cost of someone coming to your residence every other month to read the meters.

Sounds rather expensive given that my neighbor's wireless meter is about 10 feet further from the bedroom than mine...and the other neighbor's wireless meter is about 60 feet closer to my bedroom than mine...and I spend most of my time three feet from a wireless router.

When people start bitching about the dangers of electric power lines, I like to ask them if they spend a third of their life under an electric blanket. That shuts most of them up really quickly.

Wouldn't it be GREAT if Tesla had been born one century later?

Jonesy

Electric meters are likely a Zigbee (peer to peer) network and eventually communicate via a cell phone data stream. The meters are TWO-WAY. The power company can disconnect power remotely.

Water meters have batteries. Supposedly they are "truck" activated and only talk back when prompted. Yes, they have a battery.

The gas meters, I don;t know, but they may operate the same way as the water meters. They contain batteries.

Battery life is estimated to be about 7 to 10 years as I understand it.

I have a radio connected electric meter here in WA state and power cannot be disconnected except by someone doing something at the meter itself. I know this because I needed power disconnected to do some work where the lines from the meter base enter the shop. PSE sent out someone to disconnect the power and then re-connect it the next day after I had done the work. No charge for the service. I suppose it is possible that they have upgraded the meter without me knowing but as I recall when they switched me from the old way of using meter readers to the new fangled radio reporting they had to shut off the power. They sent us a letter informing us of the time window when we would be losing power for a short time period. This has not happened again. Eric

Not quite. The power meters typically use 900 MHz spread spectrum to communicated with each other using a store and forward mesh network system. Eventually, the meter reading is delivered through a series of hops by other meters to an access point radio that is connected to the internet. From there, the data goes to the utility company computah or service company.

Some smart meters have a built in Zigbee radio, designed to communicate with subscriber owned energy monitors. However, there are few approved devices and the local utility (PG&E) doesn't seem interested in expanding the selection: I'm underwhelmed.

Correct. Note that they are also simplex radios, that can either transmit or receive, but not at the same time.

Most can do this. Allegedly, it's to deal with turning the power on/off when a customer relocates. It saves a truck roll for connects and disconnects. There are numerous anecdotes of people having their power disconnected for non-payment, but the few where details were supplied, were by a truck roll to recover the meter, not by a remote disconnect. However, this may change in the future.

Both the power and gas meters have batteries. 10 years is the nominal expected life from lithium-thionyl chloride (LTC) batteries. However, these batteries are non-rechargeable and will need to be replaced eventually. Fortunately, newer batteries are rechargeable and can allegedly last 20 years. I don't know they plan to handle the battery replacement or recharge problem.

Yep and also not rechargeable. Locally, the gas meters run in the commercial UHF frequency range (450-470 MHz) and do NOT use spread spectrum. I know the frequencies, but I'm not talking.

The battery life depends on how close to the internet connected radio the smart meter is located. If it's quite close, it will be doing the store and forward repeater dance for a large number of other smart meters located further away. That will burn more power running the transmitter, and produce a shorter battery life. Smart meters that are further away, and don't do much store and forward repeating, will last much longer.

More details: etc...

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

response to Jeff Re >Electric meters are likely a Zigbee (peer to peer) net work and eventually

Quote=Jeff

Not quite. The power meters typically use 900 MHz spread spectrum to communicated with each other using a store and forward mesh network system. Eventually, the meter reading is delivered through a series of hops by other meters to an access point radio that is connected to the internet. From there, the data goes to the utility company computah or service company.

Some smart meters have a built in Zigbee radio, designed to communicate with subscriber owned energy monitors. However, there are few approved devices and the local utility (PG&E) doesn't seem interested in expanding the selection: I'm underwhelmed.

End Quote

==

I believe in our area the systems that reduced demand by allowing the utili ty to shut off the AC and/or electric hot water have been upgraded/converte d to the same electric meter two-way system. We also have the ability to t rack demand, but I've not signed up.

Previously those demand based systems were radio based.

Yep. That's another use for the zigbee radio in the smartmeter. I'm not sure how the local utility (PG&E) does load shedding or "demand response". For example, for air conditioning, they off these: but I don't have a clue how they communicate.

I signed up. The web pile produces a tolerable graph of charges and usage over time. What irritates me is that every time I impliment some manner of energy savings, the savings are offset by a corresponding increase in rates. Here's a spreadsheet I threw together of my monthly costs and usage from 6/2008 to 8/2014: Note the decreasing trend line in usage, and the almost flat trendline in the cost graph. I dropped my usage by 25%, but the charges remaind the same. Grrrr...

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Bullshit. The power losses involved make it a fool's dream.

The sun showers the earth with a wide spectrum of RF.