Dishwasher not swishing: circulation pump gets no power

I assume the unit uses an electronic controller, and not an electromechanical one. If it /is/ the latter, check the timer switch.

If it's the former, it could just be a bad wire or connection between the controller and the pump.

Need to go from the motor terminals to each end of circuit and see where the interruption is. You can start at one side of the mains and work your way through each connection point to see where the open is.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Find & check switch 6.

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Best Regards:
                     Baron.

My guess is that what you describe above is a float switch and is the "6" symbol in the next to the bottom line at the left side (as you said above). A possible problem is that it is not closing and the motor won't run because the circuit does not think there is enough water. Might be there is not enough water, or the float switch has a problem. My guess is that is what "check switch 6" is about. [My dishwasher fills partly on a time cycle, and a malfunctioning pressure reducer prevented a complete fill.]

The few dishwashers in the US that I have played with have a single pump motor (probably on pin 2 as you guess). The motor is used for drain also

- the water is pumped out. That does not seem to be consistent with your meter measurement. If there is a second motor my guess is it is pin 13 - could be a fan for drying.

My guess is that the rectangles with diagonal slashes (like pin 3,4,5) are solenoids such as might be attached to fill or drain valves (which might be pins 3,5).

Pins 12 & 16 might be switches, like a door-open switch.

If pin 11 has a heater, the lower symbol may be a temperature limit switch.

Tracing wires should tell you what the symbols are.

You might want to try newsgroup uk.d-i-y

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bud--

Not quite sure which 6 you mean, from this unix-like reply! Surely not the double switch labelled 06 over on the far left. You must mean the switchy hatty little symbol at the lower left of the diagram labelled '6. Are you thinking, like me, that this is this the anti-flood cutoff device? There's a round grey plastic thingy located on the bottom plate of my machine, and has a round white polystyrene float visible in this plastic device. A bit like an thick oversized communion wafer, if anyone remembers such things. The flood sensor seemed OK to me, dry too.

To complete my uploading of the timer control circuit diagram for the Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher, here's what I guess are the components attached to the PCB pins (along the top of the diagram) taken from an earlier post of mine. Counting the pins from left to right, here's what I *think* is attached to each:

pin 1 : main power button switch pin 2 : motor with capacitor? dunno. pin 3 : pump motor pin 4 : motor (without pump?? a "load"?) pin 5 : pump motor pins 8-9 : God knows what pin 11 : fuse, water-heater, normally-on microswitch pin 12 : a normally-off safety microswitch (?) pins 13-14: ??? (mystery circle!) pins 15-16: a normally-off safety microswitch (?) pins 17-18: ??? (can't find this symbol anywhere!) pins 19-21: Thermistor circuit

Mysteries: At the low left of the diagram, what is the symbol marked '6? In the middle of the diagram, is the thing labeled &2 a two way switch?

I think if I knew these things, it would help to connect (in my understanding) the diagram and the actual wires and devices I see dotted around the machine. I would be very grateful for any informed guesses and suggestions from people.

Thanks for everyone's replies. I'm very encouraged by the quick and sure response. Encouraged enough to put on my boiler suit and disconnect the damn machine again, and go checking for continuity and shit until I get the damn thing working again. I will follow up when I do. It's always gratifying to come across such posts.

Many thanks again everyone,

Sandy

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=A0Surely

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Have you contacted whomever installed/sold/ever serviced the dishwasher? You are informed enough to be able to hold an intelligent discussion with someone familiar with the product and maybe they could give you some tips on your particular model.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Yes ! Thats the one.

If that switch is OC the main motor will not run. The other side is via the timer. 6th contact from left marked (1)

There is also a cutout marked 7/ that should be checked. It may be a manual reset.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Hi!

I think you will find that you have a relay in your dishwasher with burnt contacts. This will prevent the pump from ever getting power. If you have an electronic set of controls, there ought to be some relays somewhere.

Since you mentioned that replacing the controller board did not resolve the problem, I would say that there is a separate power control and distribution unit elsewhere in the unit. You should locate this part and see what's inside or on it.

It's less likely but possible that there are fuses protecting each major circuit in the unit. One of these may have blown. Nuisance fuse blowing is possible but unlikely. If there is a fuse and it blew, there is likely a fault in the circuit.

If you do end up finding that a burnt relay is the problem, you can sometimes repair it by carefully levering the cover off the relay and cleaning the burned contacts. Unfortunately, opening relays can involve violence, and sometimes you just can't do it without destroying the relay itself.

The wiring in your dishwasher should be pretty straightforward (but this will vary depending upon how many functions it has). It should be possible to trace out each wire and determine what it does.

William

Just to get things straight: what kind of switch is this switch '6? It's normally closed, yes? Do you think -- by it's position in the diagram -- it's the flood protection switch?

Where would cutout 7/ be, physically? Is it on the pump itself?

Switch '6 also controls the things immediately to the right of the main circulation pump, labelled :9, '5, and 59. These look like solenoid-type thingies, the ones with "triangle propellers" look maybe like valves. Are they solenoid type things? The circle labelled '30 I'm pretty sure is the drain pump (in Europe apparently it's usual to have two separate pumps). This pump still works.

What is your guess for the thing labelled )0 off contact 13 from the left? It must be acting as some kind of sensor, I'm thinking, by it's position on the right of the diagram.

I've checked for continuity and there's no breaks in the wires that I can find. However, during operation of a dishwasher cycle, no voltage is ever given (by the brand new replacement controller!) to the main circulation pump, as measured with a multi-meter. Therefore -- it looks to me -- like the controller is expecting a signal to proceed, which it never receives.

What is the symbol marked 17&, over towards the right? It looks a bit like a Christmas cracker, so I'm hoping it's some fusey cut-out thing. I would dearly love to know its meaning.

Having had a good look at the innards of my dishwasher, I'm not intimidated by it anymore. They're really very straightforward things. I can feel it's not far from working. It's really frustrating right now, but I now feel I *can* get it working again.

... and of course, if it stops me having to wash up by hand every day, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

Regards,

Sandy

I'm pretty sure my dishwasher has just the one PCB. I've just spent the evening with the dishwasher on its side, checking for continuity and tracing the wiring, and locating and inspecting water tubes and devices. And of course, drinking cups of tea and eating biscuits (cookies?). No wires broken, alas so the mystery is still at large. I checked the dishwasher's operation again -- the controller definitely never sends voltage to the main pump. But every 5 minutes or so it fills a little bit more, I watched it do this for 40 minutes, and then got fed up and had to press the button to make it drain and stop the cycle.

By the way, I've uploaded the manufacturer's circuit diagram for my dishwasher at:

Also, here's a picture of the one and only PCB in my Beko "DE 2541 FX" slimline dishwasher, at:

(...Are the black and blue blocks on the left, in lieu of the relays?)

But it is very interesting what you said about burnt relays...

...On the day the dishwasher went wonky, that morning we had just had our electricity reconnected to the mains grid after a week of being without electricity. (They were logging nearby in the forest.) When our supply was reconnected, actually *three* things went wrong that day.

1) A long-life bulb stopped working. 2) My Bosch jigsaw stopped working. 3) The dishwasher worked in an odd way for several "clearing the backlog" washes -- there were longer and longer pauses between the filling/heating, and waiting for the swishing sound of dishes being cleaned. On the last successful go, the swishing suddenly started an hour after starting a run. (It startled me, in fact!)

After three things had independently gone wrong, I measured the voltage of the mains (supplied from step-down transformer from overhead wires that snakes across our forest). The normal domestic mains voltage in England is 230-240 volts AC. That afternoon ours read 255 volts, which slowly came down after a several days to 240, and then back down to it's usual 235-ish.

While tinkering this evening with the dishwasher, I was thinking that (apart from the possibility of blown fuses/relays) it had to be EITHER a bad sensor -- an input to the timer/controller -- that is not performing, OR that a process is not happening (because of a solenoid etc.) that ultimately leads to an undesirable reading from a sensor. That's to say "If no voltage ever gets sent to the motor by the brand new replacement controller, then the fault is because the dishwasher programme must be waiting for an OK signal from somewhere in the system that never arrives."

This happens on the simple 15 minute "pre-wash" setting (no heating of the water is involved, so that clears Mr. Thermostat from the list of suspects).

Because of the unusual voltages on the day the dishwasher died, I think it most very probably must be a high-voltage actuator (a solenoid or a fuse) that's gone, and probably not a low-voltage sensor.

I would very much appreciate anything you have to say.

Regards,

Sandy

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It could well be that the over-voltage has fried some of the electronics. That's why I always (#times in 45 years) get a dishwasher with a mechanical timer. NOt as many choices, but a LOT less that can go wrong.

Usenet Inscribed thus:

Yes its normally closed.

Yes, probably, since its a thermal cutout. Looking at the diagram its shown directly above the motor. Its normally closed.

9 & 59 are probably solenoid water valves. I'm not at all sure what 5 is.

It that case it rules out switch 6. Since if 6 was open the pump wouldn't run.

One of those, possibly the one marked )0 is the timer drive motor.

366 could be the water level sensor.

I think +)7 is the heater and 17& the soap dispenser.

The basic operation is that of a rotary switch driven by a motor. Once a program has been chosen, the switch drive motor normally runs continuously. A solenoid is often used to cause the switch drive motor to step the rotary switch on to the next position depending upon some criteria being met. This could be :- Fill level, Temperature, Time. Usually the fill level has to be reached and water shut off before the main pump motor is allowed to start.

Often the main pump motor and heater are not allowed to be both switched on at the same time. Then when water temperature has been reached the soap dispenser is activated. Then a timed wash cycle commences. Water is drained. Refilled and rinse aid injected and a further wash cycle starts.

This is followed by another heat cycle designed to create a high temperature, and short wash before fully emptying. This is designed to dry the contents and leave a polish.

All the above will vary depending upon the chosen program and is not any more than a general description of operation. Being on the spot and able to see what wire goes to which component is a great advantage. :-)

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Sandy,

I'm in the UK !

Drop me an Email.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Gee - Your English is so good you almost sound American.

hr(bob) snipped-for-privacy@att.net Inscribed thus:

Why, thankyou for your complement, kind sir... ;-)

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Best Regards:
                     Baron.

Is this indeed a rotary switch model, rather than one with all electronic controls and a fancy touch panel? If it's the former, it sounds possible to me that the rotary switch is at fault--either the little timer motor for it isn't turning it (because of motor or gear train failure), or some of the contacts are not operating properly. The first failure mode could be tested by manually turning the switch by small bits and seeing if the dishwasher goes through the proper stages of washing that it's currently missing. The latter problem would require a timing diagram of the switch to diagnose easily; there's a chance there may be one pasted into the machine somewhere, or associated with the schematic.

It does seem rather odd to me that, if it's a rotary switch model, the various wires to the switch aren't shown on the schematic. On the other hand, it is a slightly strange schematic to begin with, so I guess it wouldn't be a complete shock.

--
Andrew Erickson

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot
lose."  -- Jim Elliot

Couple of possibilities not so far mentioned I think. On one or two models of d/w an open circuit heating element will prevent the main pump motor from running. Also, failures of the wiring loom where it flexes as it passes between the door and main body of the machine are common enough.

On most machines, clicking the timer switch on by hand should step the machine through it`s program. usually starting with:- drain, fill, fill

• main motor, drain, etc.

Ron(UK)

Hi!

Fair enough. I can't view your circuit diagram from where I am now, but I will look at it as soon as time allows and see if I have any further thoughts.

That's always a good troubleshooting practice!

A-ha!

Now that's a good point to consider. When power is first restored, it's not always stable. The voltage may be high, low or "wobbly". That's hard on electrical equipment.

Since you mentioned a lightbulb failing and the line voltage being at

255 volts (instead of the more normal 240), it is obvious that your line voltage was high. This puts stress on everything that is plugged in and operating at the time. Simpler devices are likely to take it better, at least to a point. (Had your lightbulb survived, it would have been a good example of this theory.)

I'm afraid that it is likely your dishwasher was damaged and not just put into a confused state. The damage probably took place within a few minutes.

Since you've replaced the controller board, I am in agreement that you need to check the sensors and actuators that the control board works with to get the dishes washed. It's very possible that more damage is lurking in the shadows.

One must consider that the power supply in the dishwasher may not have been able to maintain proper voltage regulation, causing high or incorrect voltages to be present in the unit. This could lead to damaged sensors, solenoids or whatever else there is in the unit. Careful testing of each part should be performed--hopefully the schematic you have shows appropriate characteristics for each part. Otherwise you will have to make some educated guesses and careful examinations.

I'll try to get a look at the schematic you have posted and see if that gives me any ideas.

William

In article , Usenet writes

Terrible diagram. Can't think how that was meant to help.

Check switch 06 carefully. One side may be broken. WITH PLUG OUT!

There is some kind of fusible link (7A) above motor 630. Check that.

The switch &2 looks like it may be me kind of heat selector switch. Is it?

Check the link 7). A fuse?

What's "0 DLQ%RDLG" ? A hybrid PCB potted in epoxy?

You said the dishwasher was cheap. Afraid you now know why.

Arçelik is a big factory in Turkey. Any "brand" of white goods you buy in Europe now comes from there.

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