charging a fully discharged car lead acid battery

I have a car with a battery that is completely discharged (accessory left on for over 24 hours). Read 0 volts.

What is the best way to remedy this?

a) jump start - it seems to not be a good option as it dumps high current into the dead battery. If you're on the road somewhere, sure, you need to get going but jump starting seems to be undesirable.

b) put it on a battery charger, one of those 5/10/25 amp ones. If so, which rate is the best for a completely flat battery?

There seems to be a lot said about sulfate build up on batteries. It seems to be an unsettled subject on the Net, as many say one thing but an equal number refute it. One claim in interesting to me- that leaving a lead acid battery in flat condition for a long time caused sulfate build up. Is this true, and what is a "long time"? Are we talking days, weeks, or months?

Reply to
Veggie
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Reply to
Frank S.

If you're just talking 24 hours of drain and the battery is discharged, it should just charge right up using any method you have, slow charge,

50A boost then start, jump start then drive around a few miles, anything should work. Car batteries are pretty tough. I have a 1993 Ford van that sat 6 yrs, battery sitting in a dead condition for probably 5.5 of those in temps ranging from 110 degrees to -25. I figured the Van dead including the battery with only 6000 miles on it. Charged the battery, fired right up with 6 yr old gas and all. This was 2 yrs ago and battery and van still running fine. Nice to be back from that 6 yr "vacation".
Reply to
RonKZ650

About the only option you do not want to do is to jump start the car. The excessive current demands on the charging system of the car might cause alternator or regulator damage. Some car charging circuits have protection for excessive battery current draw during charge, most until recent model years do not.

The best option is to use the lowest current charger until you can verify 10 volts on the battery unloaded after it sits a few minutes off the charger. Then any higher current chrage should do fine. This is only to provide a margin a safety on the excessive current draw the battery is going to attempt to pull when completely dead. No sense opening up the thermal fuse inside the transformer in your el-cheapo battery charger.

I am suprised it actually reads zero volts, unless the battery has an internal excessive discharge protect cutoff device. Disconnect the battery and read the unloaded voltage.

FYI, Were it my car with winter coming up, I would not even worry about it, replace the darn thing. Even the best batteries are less than $100. It might even be new enough to get a pro-rated warranty exchange!!!! Having been out in the cold single digits with a bad battery ONCE, I never chance a weak battery on an upcoming winter.

Reply to
dkuhajda

"Veggie" bravely wrote to "All" (11 Oct 05 23:19:43) --- on the heady topic of "charging a fully discharged car lead acid battery"

Ve> From: Veggie Ve> Xref: core-easynews sci.electronics.repair:344843

Ve> I have a car with a battery that is completely discharged (accessory Ve> left on for over 24 hours). Read 0 volts.

Ve> What is the best way to remedy this?

Ve> a) jump start - it seems to not be a good option as it dumps high Ve> current into the dead battery. If you're on the road somewhere, sure, Ve> you need to get going but jump starting seems to be undesirable.

Ve> b) put it on a battery charger, one of those 5/10/25 amp ones. If so, Ve> which rate is the best for a completely flat battery?

Ve> There seems to be a lot said about sulfate build up on batteries. It Ve> seems to be an unsettled subject on the Net, as many say one thing but Ve> an equal number refute it. One claim in interesting to me- that Ve> leaving a lead acid battery in flat condition for a long time caused Ve> sulfate build up. Is this true, and what is a "long time"? Are we Ve> talking days, weeks, or months?

Charge it at a current rate as high as possible but that doesn't cause rapid dissociation of the electrolyte (hydrogen outgassing). One might start at only a mere 1 ampere and work up from there as the terminal voltage reaches a nominal minimum 1.75V per cell (depending on temperature).

Mind that if the battery measures zero volts under load that it may still exibit 12 volts open circuit and not accept any charge at all. In this case one might try raising the charging voltage until it begins to accept a charge. Then continue the charging process in the usual contolled manner. If it won't accept a charge then chuck it.

A*s*i*m*o*v

... Real techs don't lick nine-volt batteries!

Reply to
Asimov

Do either, the battery will never be the same again, but if you just stick it on the charger on the normal setting or jump start the car and drive it for a half hour or so then it might work for a bit.

Sulfate will build up very quickly, hours to days, after months it'll be very heavily sulfated.

Reply to
James Sweet

Jumper a small 12v bulb like a stop light bulb in series with a good battery. I will be at 10 or more volts in a few hours if not less. Then use a headlamp bulb to complete the charge. Bob AZ

Reply to
Bob AZ

I ended up borrowing a lab power supply and am charging it at 1 amp. I figured it can't be healthy for the battery to take a high current charge. From my experience in nickel batteries, fast charging shortened battery life significantly. Not sure if this translates to lead acid.

You're right, I measured 0.0 at the cigarette light with the key in accessory position. I guess they run a relay now to power accessories, and there wasn't enough voltage to energize. The battery actually read about 8.5 at the terminal, no load. I gave it 2 hours of 1 amp charge, then disconnected it for the night. After sitting overnight, it reads

11.0 volts.

It's back on 1 amp charge again.

Reply to
Veggie

What voltage was needed to pass 1 amp? This tends to be the clue. A heavily sulphated lead acid can have a very high internal resistance so most modern chargers can't pass enough current. Same as trying to charge it with the car alternator after a jump start.

Leave the lab supply set at one amp on for about 3 days.

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Think every car alternator ever made will limit the current to a safe value for it. Indeed, even early ones had voltage limiting which meant they simply wouldn't recharge a sulphated battery with a high internal resistance.

--
*A cubicle is just a padded cell without a door.

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Got the battery of my bimmer flat after 10 months of storage without disconnecting it. 0 millivolts ! Put a batt charger, less than 0.5 Amps for hours at the beginning. Then the current slowly increased. Left it for 12 hrs during the day only for 2 days. The battery wasn't filled yet when and I felt too much impatient thinking it was dead. Turned the key, the starter ran slow, black smoke then the engine started. Got a 3 or 4 km drive then left it for 1 hour in idle. The voltage climbed close to 11 V with the lights On, engine stopped. Today, 3 months later the voltage is correct and I've no trouble starting after a week sleeping in the garage (the car, not me!) .

Shall I add that the battery is a low cost _all black_ battery, 4-y old ?

"Veggie" a écrit dans le message news: jMX2f.533$ snipped-for-privacy@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...

Reply to
zantafio

I'll check that when I disconnect the charger for the night later today. It can't be much more than 12v, because the max of this supply is 12v. Which reminds me, as the battery comes up to voltage, the charger won't do the trick anymore. I'll have to get a real car battery charger.

It seemed to be common sense to trickle charge it for awhile, instead of jolting it with a jump from a charged battery. Beyond common sense, is there a reason for a low 1 amp charge for several days? Is it to prevent hydrogen formation?

Reply to
Veggie

A healthy lead acid battery can take a huge charging current with no difficulty. 5/10/25 A are all fine. In fact, you can put as much current as you're able, as long as your wires can take it, and the actual battery voltage does not exceed 14.2 V (for a nominal 12 V battery.)

Jumping does not hurt a healthy battery. If it really only shows 0 V, however, this is not a good sign. That generally means that the battery is shorted inside. Honestly, I've never seen one that had ALL the cells shorted, so you usually see 6, 8 or 10 volts.

If your battery is actually completely shorted, you could damage the donor charging system by jumping this shorted battery.

To be prudent, you could put it on a trickle charger and watch the battery voltage while you do this. The voltage should come up to 12V rather quickly. Once it does, you know that you have no shorted cells and you can proceed to actually charge it.

If your car is stuck somewhere remote, you can use an automobile headlight, in series with the jumper cables, to limit the donor current to something that you know will be safe for the donor. Do this just long enough to see if you can get your battery up close to 12 V, then jump directly, without the headlight.

Any of these is fine for your healty battery. Once the battery comes up to 14.2 V you should reduce the charging current to keep the voltage below that number.

Sulfation is a very slowly developing process. It starts as soon as the battery begins to be discharged, but it takes months in this state to get to a point where the battery won't take a charge.

Sulfation can be reversed. There are many ways to do it, but if you want to restore your battery to good health, you must not try to rush it. Put it in a slow charge, as always, keeping the voltage below 14.2 V. A badly sulfated battery will only draw 50-100 mA in this state, but there is a chance that it will recover if you are patient. It can take a week or 2.

For a battery that has sat a day, or a month, you'll never notice it, and it will recover as you use the car, as long as your charging system is working properly.

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----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA

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Reply to
Jim Adney

A CV?CC lab supply is a perfect battery charger. Set the voltage limit to 14 V and the current to whatever your the supply and your wires can take. A lead acid battery in good condition can take charge at any rate up to what it can deliver. Most of these can deliver 200+ amps, so most of us are not likely going to be able to come up with chargers bigger than that.

This proves that it's healthy.

Any charging current, up to the point where you get 14.2 V across the battery terminals will be fine. (Above 14.2V, you start to dissociate water into hydrogen and oxygen. If this happens vigorously, it can damage the porous sintered plates, plus you get an explosive gas.)

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----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA

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Reply to
Jim Adney

At only 12 V, you really won't have much stored energy in that battery. Yes, you'll need a different charger, or a jump.

The trickly charge is always safe, and no problem at all if you aren't in a hurry.

There's no hydrogen problem as long as you keep the battery voltage below 14.2 V.

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----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA

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Reply to
Jim Adney

I think you're right, but I'm not sure what one would do if run into a dead short. There's probably some minimum safe impedance that they expect.

A sulfated cell does appear to have a high internal resistance, but that's not the whole story. The reason it looks this way is that the lead plate, in the process of discharging, has been turned to lead sulfate, taking the sulfate ions out of the sulfuric acid solution.

The lead sulfate (a solid) is deposited in some particular state, but slowly changes crystalline form over time. Unfortunatley, the latter crystal form is not nearly as soluble as the one originally deposited, so when the current is reversed, you can only remove the sulfate ions, taking them back into solution, as fast as the new crystal state will let go of them.

Unfortunately, that's slow.

You can push the voltage up, but that doesn't increase the solubility.

In the end, increasing the voltage just quickly puts you above the point where hydrolysis occurs, and this just turns out to be a waste of energy, because it does nothing toward recharging the battery. High voltage, and hydrolysis, also tend to damage the porous sintered battery plates.

If you want to reverse sulfation, you just have to set the voltage at about 2.35 V per cell and wait for the ions to come back into solution. If you're patient, it usually works.

I rather regularly recover sulfated batterys and it generally takes about a week. I had one which took 2.

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----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney snipped-for-privacy@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA

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Reply to
Jim Adney

Sorry for the dumb question, but how many cells are in a 12 volt car battery? Must be six at around 2 volts each. If this is right, then your advice is to set the charge voltage at 14.1 volts. If I recall right, the car's charging system runs at 13.8 volts so the 14.1 is right in that ballpark.

There is all manner of hubbub about pulsed desulfators, etc. For the average person, taking a week or two with off the shelf equipment is much desired over special desulfators.

Reply to
Veggie

A dead battery will damage an alternator as will a battery with a bad cell. It is a matter of time and chance when and how hot the alternator, regulator, or rectifier get and when they will fail.

"An alternator was never designed to charge a completely dead battery"

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A discharged, but not dead, battery is ok to jump start and allow the alternator to charge it up. A discharged battery will read around

11-12 volts unloaded or minimal load, 100mA. 8 volts on the battery indicated that it was in a deep discharge state, not good.

Unless it was a nearly new battery, I would do one of two things if it does charge and start the car:

  1. Get it load tested on the coldest day in the near future, replace if it is marginal.
  2. Simply replace the battery with a new one for the peace of mind.
Reply to
dkuhajda

Says nothing about damaging the alternator, though.

It's true an alternator won't charge a *totally* flat battery. I had this once after leaving the car at an airport long stay carpark while on holiday. Still don't know what caused it. Got a jump start and drove the

50 or so miles home. At the end of the journey the battery was still *totally* dead. Put it on trickle charge for a week using an ancient non regulated charger. After it was fully charged I checked the capacity by discharging into a load and timing it. Only a rough test. And it would start the car ok. Dunno if this shortened the life as it was not new and I'd bought a replacement. ;-)
--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

    Dave Plowman        dave@davenoise.co.uk           London SW
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Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

Dave-

I've heard that the reason a totally flat battery won't charge is that its chemistry has changed because of sulphation. To get it to take a charge, a much higher voltage is required, which your alternator may not be able to deliver. Perhaps your trickle charger has a sufficiently high open-circuit voltage to overcome the problem. After the trickle current had flowed for a sufficient amount of time, the chemistry returned to normal.

Fred

Reply to
Fred McKenzie

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