Advice requested from those of you who have successfully checked camber at home

Ya, I am to. But first let me say this, The first spec you posted,

0* 14' plus or minus 10', seems this isn't as critical as some posters are making it. For toe, it is still a trig problem, but the problem is defining, side b (a reference point).

I wonder do the shops attach a laser and measure on a wall scale a defined distance away?

I don't know this, is it a single adjustment that moves both wheels or do you adjust both wheels separately? (makes a reference even more important) Sorry just thinking on the keypad.

You have a trig problem and a measurement problem. The measurement problem is more difficult.

It is not be hard to convert the 14 minutes to inches using the wheel diameter as one line. The angle is how much more is the front of the wheel turned in more than the rear of the wheel. I'll call the wheel 16" from front to rear. (just realized this almost the same trig problem for camber, just rotated 90*)

I'm using the trig calculator above, this time the orientation is correct. Put the following numbers in, (side c) = 16, (angle A) = .233. The angle is .233 because 14min/60min = .233. Your answer is (side a) which is 0.065". So, you want the rear of a 16" wheel stick out 0.065" more than the front. Not real easy to measure, But, if you could extend the 16" to 12 ft (192") with a laser pointer, then (side a) is 0.781". The laser must be perfectly square with the wheel. Just some thinking. Hope it makes some sense. Mikek

wrong (which is almost never) simply because Toyota knows something BMW doesn't know, which is how to design a complete vehicle. "

It gets better than that. I used to work with a guy from Poland. Said he co uld not believe how many tools you need for cars in the US, which includes Toyotas. Says the ones they sell over there come apart with like a half do zen wrenches while here you need all kinds of Torx and whatever else they c an invent.

For reasons beyond the scope of this text which is already beyond the scope of this thread, people over there have more of a tendency to fix their own stuff. Seems people in the US are getting lazy, to the point where they wi ll jiggle the handle on the toilet for ten years rather than to adjust it.

The measurement problem is more difficult. "

I was wondering when someone was going to mention trig.

What he needs is something to act as a really huge caliper. Looking at the bottom of most cars there is no centerline to be found.

Actually is you can be absolutely sure the car is on a level surface, somet hing like a plum bob could work. Measruing it accurately is still a problem , from the rim to a string ? And adjusting to minutes with only like 16" to work with ? No thanks.

But the good news is that you don't need the BMW alignment machine, they a re not really brand specific. That means he does not have to go to the deal er and pay three times what an independent would charge.

On older cars I did set the toe in a few times. There was enough clearance to measure underneath wheel to wheel. Whaddya think the odds of that are he re ? Did Slim leave town ? I never set caber or caster in the old backyard, but usually you don't heave to, even after replacing ball joints. They hav e to pretty far out of spec to affect it enough, really. Still, usually I w ould just pay the damn forty bucks and have it aligned. Of course that fort y bucks is now a hundred, but how much is a set of tires ? A nice set of Du nlops or Michelins is worth the cost of an alignment, plus the car handles better. Plus with really good tires it rides better and quieter.

But some people are penny wise and pound foolish.

You just haven't read all the posts, I have at least 3 maybe 4 posts that mention trig and I posted a calculator, with the problem to solve.

I mentioned finding the reference is the hardest part.

Measuring it accurately is still a problem, from the rim to a string ? And adjusting to minutes with only like 16" to work with ? No thanks.

I also mentioned if you could mount a laser square to the wheel, then you could measure at 16ft on a wall and use 0.781" instead of 0.065". I said 12ft in my post, that was wrong.

That means he does not have to go to the dealer and pay three times what an independent would charge.

Whaddya think the odds of that are here ? Did Slim leave town ? I never set camber or caster in the old backyard, but usually you don't have to,

even after replacing ball joints. They have to pretty far out of spec to affect it enough, really. Still, usually I would just pay the damn forty

bucks and have it aligned. Of course that forty bucks is now a hundred, but how much is a set of tires ? A nice set of Dunlops or Michelins

is worth the cost of an alignment, plus the car handles better. Plus with really good tires it rides better and quieter.

And sometimes people are penny wise and also pound wise. It really ads up over 30 years. Mikek

Now that I've done some more research, I have a better handle on 'toe' so I'm going to agree with you that getting toe precise to 2 minutes isn't all that important, in all likelihood.

For *setting* toe, especially in the rear, it could easily be that 0 toe (degrees or inches) would be just fine, or, maybe, to take up some suspension slop, a "smidgeon" of toe (maybe 1/16th of an inch or less in linear dimension no matter what the wheel/tire diameter).

This is to take up the slop in the suspension (perhaps slightly more in the front if it's a typical RWD like all my vehicles are).

I'm still confused how to convert toe from degrees to inches, but luckily, there are web sites that will do it for us.

Interesting you mention that, because the reason for the *far away* wall is simply that the angle is small, right?

If you are talking about toe, I'm no expert, but the way I understand it is that you lock the steering wheel in the center position first (which has nothing, per se, to do with alignment but with esthetics) - and then - you pick a side, and twist a tie-rod ever so slightly - which - depending on the direction of twist, moves the front of the wheel in toward the centerline of the vehicle - or outward.

So it's one wheel at a time, measured to the centerline. Of course, you can assume all sorts of symmetries and do both wheels at the same time, but conceptually I think of toe as a wheel-to-centerline thing, to be done one at a time.

That's an interesting observation that the measurement problem is more difficult, but I think only if we try to measure degrees of toe.

If we measure inches of toe, the measurement problem is conceptually trivially simple.

I'm trying to find the triangle in the equation of toe in order to figure out how to convert the distance measurement to an angle.

Here I just drew what is my first pass guess at where that triangle lies:

Is *this* the trigonometric angle everyone is talking about?

You make a good point here in that we really have a 3-dimensional X, Y, and Z axis, each of which is rotated by 90 degrees (caster, camber, and toe).

Just to ask to get me more firmly grounded, is *this* the triangle everyone is talking about?

So don't measure in inches. If you have tools to measure camber in degrees, you can surely repurpose them to measure toe-in in degrees also, no? HTH.

Cheers, -- tlvp

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Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

The problem is obviously not the hardware; it is the user.

*SCNR*

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Am 09.12.16 um 20:46 schrieb nospam:

*FACK*

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Same here, but about temperatures using wall thermometers: people always spec out temperature in degrees but all I see is how many inches the column of mercury is, no idea how to convert degrees into inches here either :-) .

Can you help :-) ? Cheers, -- tlvp

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Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

Smartphones contain 3-axis accelerometer chips and magnetic compass chips, but AFAIK (unlike digital levels) they don't contain an inclinometer chip, so the accuracy from a phone is not likely to be high, the "bubble level" apps you can get for phones are a bit of a joke, they'll probably be influenced by large chunks of metal nearby.

The spec of the MEMS inclinometers in digital levels seems to be +/-6 minutes when measuring horizontal or vertical and +/-12 minutes for other angles, so even they would be marginal.

You might find these links useful

Note, if you alter camber, toe will alter and you will need to check and adjust if required.

HTH

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Xeno 

First they ignore you, 
Then they ridicule you, 
Then they fight you, 
Then you win. 

Mahatma Ghandi

If either of those devices had a laser pointer in them that point up, you could do a trig problem using the ceiling for camber, and on the front wall by rotating the device 90* for toe.

Hey, just noticed your link,

has the sears level shown here,

The Sears level does have a laser in it. That will do what I suggest, rotate it 90* and point it forward to see a spot on the wall. Find the centerline of your car and then it's a simple trig problem. The hard part, finding the centerline of your car. I'm not sure this helps you though, I saw no evidence that you understood how the trig solves turning the angle into inches. Mikek

After all this - consider the implication: An individual with the comprehen sion of the common garden slug has taken tools to the suspension of a heavy machine capable of significant speed and will then put it on the road amon gst similar machines. Worse, that same slug will likely be operating the ma chine, perhaps with others in it.

Anyone here wish to be on the road nearby? Not I, certainly.

Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+1 and gaining BMW=$$$

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Tekkie

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

+5 and high school math... He could go back to school and learn all this for less bux than he wasted-not to mention our time.

Drive it to the BMW shop and tell them you want it set to the preferred settings. Make certain all your bushings and arms and their esoterically named crap is brand new because as it wears it will change. Don't hit any curbs, potholes, driveways, obstructions of any sort, or drive it period. Better get new springs too as they will sag and take everything out of the trunk. If it's a convertible weld some stiffeners along the top. Have your partner and you control their weight. Fill up with gas first. Get all pebbles, stones and other safarcus out of the treads. Make certain the tire pressure is within a 10/th of a pound. I am sure I am forgetting something...

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Tekkie

I too am starting to wonder if this guy is nuts, or maybe just a troll. There is some very simple math involved here.

Ed Pawlowski posted for all of us...

Aw shucks, I wasn't even thinking of doing that... It's Saturday so should I just do it to keep the quota?

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Tekkie

could be both.

and some common sense.

snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca posted for all of us...

Letz see up to +127 ?

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Tekkie