*** Software Architect & Lead Openings @ Hyderabad

Isn't this sort of ironic in a Linux group. I suppose Open Office can manage it, but...

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Dave
mail da ve@llondel.org (without the space)
http://www.llondel.org
So many gadgets, so little time

On Fri, 25 May 2007 22:39:06 +0100 Dave {Reply Address in.Sig} wrote: | In message , Perfect | Job Accord wrote: | |> ******** Please send profiles in Word Format to My Email-Id : | | Isn't this sort of ironic in a Linux group. I suppose Open Office can manage | it, but...

...but the recruiters and HR people are, and will always be, ignorant about Linux. I'll gladly accept your resume in OOo, PDF, HTML, or plain ASCII text formats and pass them on to _my_ ${DAYJOB} if you like (several openings) :-)

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-26-2250@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Actually, a so-called recruiter posting job ads in technical newsgroups should be a flag that they are on a par with spammers and responding to those ads may do more harm to your job search than good. Corporate policy directs that HR not accept mail from recruiters who have been caught posting ads in technical groups, as that generally indicates they have no viable candidates, and are getting desperate.

A _very_ frequent reason the lower quality pimps want the CV/resume in word format is to allow them to "improve" it (giving the applicant skills and experience that exactly match the job requisition). This is why our HR types require the candidate to _bring_ a copy of their CV/resume to the initial meeting - a mismatch raises a huge flag, and the candidate will be asked about the pimp supplied version. That is usually enough to get the pimp's company banned, and often results in the candidate being rejected.

s/about Linux//

Some time ago, we had a new HR type who was adding requirements to those that we (the technical types) had specified. One requirement was some number of years experience with Bill-ware, while another was a some form of certification. Supposedly, she thought we had overlooked these "fundamental" (to her) requirements. When we found out about these additions, the "new" HR person became an 'ex-HR' person.

First, we've been microsoft free for years, so windoze experience is often a negative. Second, we tend to look down (pretty hard) on most certifications (unless they are required by law or similar), as this _usually_ means that the individual was able to memorize material needed to pass someone's tests - and this often is not very relevant to real world technical problems. Some of the things the certificating entity deem important may in fact be irrelevant, and on occasion, flat out wrong. Microsoft and Novell are notorious for this, as are some others that shall remain nameless.

Color us old-fashion, but we require it on paper (or exceptionally by fax).

Old guy

You all are the exception rather than the rule. Most of the applicable jobs I've seen these days (require) on-line application. Try cut-n-paste of a legitimate four page CV into a web form and on top of that keeping the formatting. Ya can't do it.

HR is a totally useless profession. They are spineless middle-men who's only job is to run defense for management and none are technically capable of gauging my background, let along negotiating with me.

Common questions I ask HR kronies and answers I receive.

1) Q) What is the tax structure here? What will you be withholding? A) I don't know...I'm not a tax consultant.

2) Q) What happens to my N shares of stock options if the company is bought out before I can exercise those options? Does management also have to wait five years to be vested in their options? A) They don't want to go anywhere near these questions...

3) Q) Can I see your employee handbook BEFORE negotiating salary? A) No. We cannot show you confidential company material until you are an employee.

4) Q) Do you protect confidential employee information or must I use a third party on-line service to manage my benefits? A) We outsource this service to a third party that uses "secure web browser technology" so their shouldn't be any problem. When I point out that their outsourced firm has its server farm in Florida specifically to avoid having to report break-ins the company loses interest in me as a candidate.

5) Q) If I'm applying for a Chief Scientist of Principle Engineer position then why am I reporting to a Project Manager instead of an Executive or Director? A) unspoken answer---because we only need you for eight months to get us out of this hole we dug, and after that anything goes.

oops...I should proofread before posting: "their" should read "there"

and "principle" should be "principal"...how embarrassing!

| A _very_ frequent reason the lower quality pimps want the CV/resume in | word format is to allow them to "improve" it (giving the applicant skills | and experience that exactly match the job requisition). This is why our | HR types require the candidate to _bring_ a copy of their CV/resume to | the initial meeting - a mismatch raises a huge flag, and the candidate | will be asked about the pimp supplied version. That is usually enough to | get the pimp's company banned, and often results in the candidate being | rejected.

Even if the candidate is genuinely qualified? And please do not give me the BS that the candidate can't be accepted because you are afraid the recruiter might sue. You have a written contract with the recruiter that says "thou shalt not modify resumes on penalty of loss of commission" to CYA, right?

|>...but the recruiters and HR people are, and will always be, ignorant |>about Linux. | | s/about Linux//

There is that, too.

| Some time ago, we had a new HR type who was adding requirements to those | that we (the technical types) had specified. One requirement was some | number of years experience with Bill-ware, while another was a some form | of certification. Supposedly, she thought we had overlooked these | "fundamental" (to her) requirements. When we found out about these | additions, the "new" HR person became an 'ex-HR' person.

You can't just give her specific instructions?

| First, we've been microsoft free for years, so windoze experience is | often a negative. Second, we tend to look down (pretty hard) on most | certifications (unless they are required by law or similar), as this | _usually_ means that the individual was able to memorize material needed | to pass someone's tests - and this often is not very relevant to real | world technical problems. Some of the things the certificating entity | deem important may in fact be irrelevant, and on occasion, flat out wrong. | Microsoft and Novell are notorious for this, as are some others that shall | remain nameless.

I agree with this.

|>I'll gladly accept your resume in OOo, PDF, HTML, or plain ASCII text |>formats | | Color us old-fashion, but we require it on paper (or exceptionally by | fax). | | Old guy

Businesses still have fax, unfortunately. That is technology that needs to be depricated. How many people looking for tech jobs cannot find a way to email or post a resume, or print it on real dead trees and snail mail it, but have a fax machine?

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-28-0755@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:07:02 -0000 Me wrote: | On Sun, 27 May 2007 18:55:23 -0500, Noone wrote: | |>>I'll gladly accept your resume in OOo, PDF, HTML, or plain ASCII text |>>formats |> |> Color us old-fashion, but we require it on paper (or exceptionally by |> fax). | | You all are the exception rather than the rule. Most of the applicable | jobs I've seen these days (require) on-line application. Try cut-n-paste | of a legitimate four page CV into a web form and on top of that keeping | the formatting. Ya can't do it.

A company that would use something like that just won't get my application. And then if they start claiming there are not enough people for the jobs they have, I will publically call them liars.

| HR is a totally useless profession. They are spineless middle-men who's | only job is to run defense for management and none are technically capable | of gauging my background, let along negotiating with me.

I've met a few exceptions. OK, that was 10 years ago.

| Common questions I ask HR kronies and answers I receive. | | 1) Q) What is the tax structure here? What will you be withholding? | A) I don't know...I'm not a tax consultant. | | 2) Q) What happens to my N shares of stock options if the company is | bought out before I can exercise those options? Does management also have | to wait five years to be vested in their options? A) They don't want to | go anywhere near these questions... | | 3) Q) Can I see your employee handbook BEFORE negotiating salary? A) No. | We cannot show you confidential company material until you are an employee. | | | 4) Q) Do you protect confidential employee information or must I use a | third party on-line service to manage my benefits? A) We outsource this | service to a third party that uses "secure web browser technology" so | their shouldn't be any problem. When I point out that their outsourced | firm has its server farm in Florida specifically to avoid having to report | break-ins the company loses interest in me as a candidate.

I bet you lost interest by the time of the 2nd word of their answer.

| 5) Q) If I'm applying for a Chief Scientist of Principle Engineer position | then why am I reporting to a Project Manager instead of an Executive or | Director? A) unspoken answer---because we only need you for eight months | to get us out of this hole we dug, and after that anything goes.

That should be a contract job at 5x premium.

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-28-0803@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

| On Mon, 28 May 2007 03:07:02 +0000, Me wrote: |> service to a third party that uses "secure web browser technology" so |> their shouldn't be any problem. When I point out that their outsourced | | oops...I should proofread before posting: "their" should read "there" | |> |> 5) Q) If I'm applying for a Chief Scientist of Principle Engineer |> position then why am I reporting to a Project Manager instead of an |> Executive or Director? A) unspoken answer---because we only need you |> for eight months to get us out of this hole we dug, and after that |> anything goes. | | | and "principle" should be "principal"...how embarrassing!

Your career in the PR department has just ... you can hear that flushing sound now :-)

You better stick to working with technology where "rm -fr / tmp" is more fun.

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-28-0807@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Those using the service of a lying pimp? Yeah, for two reasons; First, our legal and HR types don't want to give even the faintest impression of not being fair. Second, many of those who fall for the B/S from a lying pimp are not doing their homework, and are thus less desirable.

Sure, Phil. Actually, fully three quarters of our hires come from internal referrals. The employee providing the referral gets a finders fee when the candidate finishes the probation period, and gets frowny points if the candidate bombs. We think we get better quality that way.

You have to give instruction to your HR idiots _not_ to add requirements of a technical nature? I really don't know where HR dug this person up from, but she thought that the other requirements were needed. Why, I'll never know, as she apparently left the area after being canned.

If you don't have a neighborhood "Kinkos", "Mail Boxes Etc." or similar, check with your local Safeway or equivalent. Actually, I can still send documents with efax, kfax, and who knows what else. I seem to recall that ms word had the option to print to a fax connection, though I haven't used word in 15 years.

I suspect one reason we don't accept email, web, or Word/etc. formats is to avoid incompatible files. Postscript or PDFs usually run afoul of the mail filters. Sure, OOo will handle several formats, but we tend to be looking for the words, not the color of the crayon that was used to create the document in some creative style. Only HR actually _sees_ the document, as they mask it, add a serial number, and then scan it. All the technical types see is the ASCII printout of the CV/resume (we don't get the cover letters either) - from which any identifying data (name, sex, age, etc.) other than that serial number have been masked to avoid any bias on our part. (That can come in the interview, but no one would _ever_ admit to that.)

Old guy

It's not that there aren't enough people. They want H1B's that'll work for nothing and be virtual slaves.

On Tue, 29 May 2007 02:40:39 -0000 snipped-for-privacy@no.spam wrote: | In article , wrote: | |>A company that would use something like that just won't get my application. |>And then if they start claiming there are not enough people for the jobs |>they have, I will publically call them liars. | | It's not that there aren't enough people. They want H1B's that'll work | for nothing and be virtual slaves.

I would mention that, too.

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-29-0657@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

|>You have a written contract with the recruiter that says "thou shalt |>not modify resumes on penalty of loss of commission" to CYA, right? | | Sure, Phil. Actually, fully three quarters of our hires come from | internal referrals. The employee providing the referral gets a finders | fee when the candidate finishes the probation period, and gets frowny | points if the candidate bombs. We think we get better quality that way.

You probably do. That is a good way to find good people.

|>Businesses still have fax, unfortunately. That is technology that needs |>to be depricated. How many people looking for tech jobs cannot find a |>way to email or post a resume, or print it on real dead trees and snail |>mail it, but have a fax machine? | | If you don't have a neighborhood "Kinkos", "Mail Boxes Etc." or similar, | check with your local Safeway or equivalent. Actually, I can still send | documents with efax, kfax, and who knows what else. I seem to recall | that ms word had the option to print to a fax connection, though I | haven't used word in 15 years.

Ooh. I used once Word 4 years ago. But I didn't look at what it could print to.

| I suspect one reason we don't accept email, web, or Word/etc. formats | is to avoid incompatible files. Postscript or PDFs usually run afoul of | the mail filters. Sure, OOo will handle several formats, but we tend | to be looking for the words, not the color of the crayon that was used | to create the document in some creative style. Only HR actually _sees_ | the document, as they mask it, add a serial number, and then scan it. | All the technical types see is the ASCII printout of the CV/resume (we | don't get the cover letters either) - from which any identifying data | (name, sex, age, etc.) other than that serial number have been masked to | avoid any bias on our part. (That can come in the interview, but no | one would _ever_ admit to that.)

We just get the original resume in the original format, unmodified. We've gotten ASCII text, PDF, and Word (that OOo could handle). No PS, yet.

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-29-0658@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Carrying it further, another source is student intern programs. We have agreements with local colleges and junior/community colleges to provide student intern (work experience) positions. At each facility, there is one person designated to handle the administrative details (verifying attendance, handling the paperwork), and each department has a designated supervisor/trainer. This gets us warm bodies at a low expense, with a commitment of a quarter or semester. If we like what we see, they get invited back for a second (occasionally third) stint. The good ones get hired on. This isn't a slave labor program (much as we joke that it is), as the students are given real world situations. Both of the 2nd time interns in my department have 'sudo' capabilities of real trust.

If I recall correctly, this was a windoze printer setup function, rather than specific to the application. In the application, you could then select which printer you wanted, and one of them could be a fax connection.

Again, HR and legal want to avoid any hint of bias, and it was decided that cutting/pasting a copy such that "all" identifying points were not visible was the way to go. I think we ran into a buzz-saw with the California Labor Relations Board or something, and corporate overreacted as occasionally happens. I know this is the procedure throughout the US and Canada, and is probably true in European facilities as well. I don't know about facilities elsewhere.

Old guy

| Again, HR and legal want to avoid any hint of bias, and it was decided | that cutting/pasting a copy such that "all" identifying points were | not visible was the way to go. I think we ran into a buzz-saw with the | California Labor Relations Board or something, and corporate overreacted | as occasionally happens. I know this is the procedure throughout the US | and Canada, and is probably true in European facilities as well. I don't | know about facilities elsewhere.

I suppose there could be a bias if someone had your first name and my last name: Moe Howard :-)

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|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org)  /  Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net   /  spamtrap-2007-05-31-0709@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|