Re: Public School's Computer Labs Underfunded

I could not agree more. Cliff Stoll has already gone into great lengths about this issue in his books 'Silicon Snake Oil' and 'The High- Tech Heretic.'

With the possible exception of some word processing, save the computers for college. It's far more critical, I think, that grade schools teach reading, writing, math, critical thinking, logic, etc.

Computers are tools, not crutches. Let's keep it that way.

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[snip]

Marvelously put!

...Jim Thompson

-- | James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | | | E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat | |

| 1962 | I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Baphomet" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com...

An issue not only to the US of A. Here in Berlin/Germany the situation is pretty much the same, but it extends also to universities. I'm studying computer science at the TU (Technical University) Berlin and having to work with outdated Sun Microsystems workstations best compared to 16MB 486s has been so far one of my everyday experiences. There are some much faster terminal servers, but since they are too few for the number of students, there are times when one has to wait even to get access to one of the slowest workstations where a basic ASCII Text Editor can take up to half a minute to start up while working with graphics (except viewing very small ones in a read-only preview) is near to impossible and PDF documents take approx. 5 seconds to open each page. Disk space quotas of 60MB per user including settings and system data (approx. 40 'useful' MB) is also an issue. For those who remember my post about "reverse engeneering a PIR motion detector" putting half-transparent picture of the the PCB traces over the component side picture: This simple task (done at home) would turn out exceptionally difficult at the 'technical' university because most of the systems there do not have the appropriate software, and on those that do, it would be a real pain. The government keeps reducing its monetary help telling us that the university were much too over-equipped for years now. There are increasing student protests (have a look at indymedia) and they are certainly fully justified. And what concerns high schools, I still remember a lesson with a South Asia map held together with duct tape showing boundaries of states that no longer exist since the end of colonnialism and the teacher explaining he had no newer one to offer because the only other appropriate one was in use somewhere else. Nothing to do with computers, but a nice example.

Seeing the examples above, one may think that German schools have pretty much nothing. This is NOT true, please do not get a false idea. Basically they have what is most needed, but from time to time we get to see a rather incredible incident like the one above. These ones are not the average, but tend to happen more often as time passes.

I agree with Dr. Anton Squeegee that the primary purpose of a school is to teach the more basic skills, but I think that computers are a very good aid in the 12th and 13th grade (of which the last one will soon no longer exist since the high schools here will change the curriculum to squeeze everything into a total of 12 years) when it comes to analysis and analytical geometry. One really understands a sophisticated function better after seeing its behaviour in a computer-generated graphic.

After all, it seems that many governments no longer care about proper education, at least the USA is not the only country that suffers this fate.

Sincerely yours,

Dimitrij.

In article , snipped-for-privacy@invalid.invalid mentioned...

I agree. But it seems that the tools have to be faster, with more memory, etc., just to run the current software, not to mention the upcoming newer versions.

One of our techs ordered a batch of new PCs for his CAD/CAM lab, with

21" CRTs. The hotshots in Accounting, in order to save money, decided that the order didn't need to spend so much money on that large a CRT, so they substituted a smaller size.

The order came in, and it was found that the smaller CRTs didn't have high enough res to run the current software. So the hotshots had to eat crow and order the next batch of PCs with the high res CRTs, and swap them with the lower res CRTs in the CAD/CAM lab.

The clueless hotshots could've read the original purchase request, which said that the larger CRTs were needed to run the software, and to not make substitutions. Doh.

So the hotshots in accounting, in their zealous bean counting, might be thought of as building early obsolescence into the PCs. Just another example of your tax dollars in action.

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Watt Sun, Bad positioning of follow-up post... inserting your comments between my comments and my name. Many might think I said what, in fact, you said.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Hapened even at my employer (Intel) on a corporate-wide scale. While our marketing people were out there showing how spending a bit more would lengthen the useful lifetime of a PC, our own bean counters were cheaping us out for our internal computers. There are still people waiting for the "PC refresh" cycle to get upggraded from Pentium(TM) 2 machines running at a few hundred MHz. Fortunately, they have seen the light and the new machnes are pretty high-end.

You poor bastard! :-)

I'm sitting here on the net while I have 4 other windows going doing everything from PC board layouts to Photoshop renderings to a color printer driver running full blast, all while supporting a LAN. Yet I'm running on a 200-Mhz pentium pro, 128M RAM, and a Windoze 95 operating system which is providing acceptable response time.

I probably would have a problem concurrently running the latest whiz-bang computer game, but I became bored with computer games back around 1975 when the novelty expired.

Then too, if you are working for Intel, you are working for a firm whose CEO praises inefficient MIPS sucking software, without which new products would find no market. Perhaps this is why you are allowed to run MIPS sucking software and games in the workplace?

Harry C.

Agreed! ...and this from a company that told the rest to equip every engineer with a laptop because it was *free*. I guess Intel doesn't make displays. ;-)

My Win system at work is a laptop (remember Intel convinced us all we needed them) with an attached 21" display (3200x1600 desktop). I also have a 21" display on a "workstation" accessible by pivoting my chair 90 degrees. I guess Intel hasn't figured out the "productivity" they've been harping on. ;-)

'75, naw. The last game I got enthraled with was Adventure on the original PC (I know it was far older). I did many quarters worth of Asteroids, Pong, and ICBMs (whatever it was called) in bars. The home-computer stuff simply didn't make it, AFAIC.

It seems that his CEO is talking out two sides of the mouth.

If Intel_customer ; We gotta make a distinction then Hardware := productive ; Sales good else Hardware := expense ; Costs bad end if; ; Don't tell customer that ; that we don't believe ; even own propaganda

--
  Keith

They buy them just like everyone else. The increase in productivity more than makes up for the extra cost. I was amazed at the freedom of being able to do work in meetings, in the cafeteria, on the plane, etc. and not being tied to my cubicle.

Office ergonimics is a bit beyond selling microprocessors (or even computers) don't you think?

What about the overall loss to the productivity of the meeting while you're sitting there dorking with your laptop? I'm quite serious in asking this.

During my years at Raytheon and GRS, meetings were called for a purpose, and it took one's full attention to remain abreast about what was ongoing at the meeting if one was to make a constructive comment. Of course today I suppose that that's now considered 'old school'.

Right, and I can only imagine the creative and productive ispirations that transpire and demand immediate computer attention in such environments!

Of course it is...every professonal realizes that it borders on totall bullshit rivaling that of even teleconferencing! It's possibly a reason why productivity and innovation has gradually come to a complete stand-still in this country over the past 15 or so years.

This is because, in many reorganized and new firms, employees are more focused on insignificant cosmetic details than on addressing the more difficult real issues.

Harry C.

Likely similar across the worldwide corporation, but the groups I have worked in are pretty no-nonsense. You are expected to excuse youself from even attending a meeting unless your presense is really necessary. And your continued employment is dependent on your latest Ranking and Rating, no matter your position or senority.

And I have increasingly observed meetings where real-time laptop access to backup information is REQUIRED in order to conduct the meeting. (For example, complex coordination meetings involving dozens of separate groups.)

Business moves faster than that today. And deals with a great deal more information as well. In some cases, information that changes even DURING the meeting.

Half the meetings I attend are held in the cafeteria. Wireless networking throughout the campus. Try to think outside the old box.

Sorry, I can't figure out what you are trying to say here. But here's hoping you are feeling better soon.

The point is that if you only use computers in schools to teach kids about computers you are missing out on the main benefits. There is a lot of educational software designed to teach other subjects (geography, history, maths etc). But they can also have unexpected effects...

There was a trial some years back in the UK that gave a few laptops to schools to see what impact they would have. One school gave their laptop to the most disruptive pupil so he could take it home etc. They fully expected it to come back in bits. To their surprise it transformed the kid. He quickly became the class "expert" that other kids turned to for advice. His whole attitude changed as he no longer had to cause trouble to get attention.

He was probably bored out of his skull until he had his hands on a computer.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

to

expected

His

I suspect a lot of us can identify with that phenomenon first-hand!

Richard, in the real world of firms that are really goal and accomplishment oriented, your required presence at important meetings has nothing whatsoever to do with "your latest Ranking and Rating, no matter your position or seniority". In every firm I have worked for during the past 40 years, ranking and ratings have zero significance except to the HR department and sometimes payroll. At both Kodak and Raytheon, ratings and ranking were largely a measure of someone's popularity and political connect -- They had absolutely nothing to do with an individuals productivity and ability to contribute.

Well managed firms know this, and exploit it. Often, very often, you realize that the person with the incite is a person who is often very unpopular with both his peers and his manager. I once worked for a man who was arguably the most hated and despised person in the firm, but because his projects always were completed on time and made higher than average profits for the firm, was respected by everyone that worked for him for this!

When I worked under him, I quickly learned that to accomplish any goal at a meeting (which ostensibly is called for such a purpose), you invite as key participants those people that you persoanlly know can make useful contributions to the meeting's agenda and goal. It always worked for me, even though some of these meetings involved a great deal of "plain talk", personal insults and often foul language.

Of course committee managed firms don't approve of this, which sooner or later will be recognized as one of their fundamental flaws.

Harry C.

I was simply twitting you about Intel's goals. They told everyone that professionals should have the best tools, since they were paid for by productivity. Indeed at one IDF they stated that a high[end laptop paid for itself (was "free") if the user did an additional two hours of work a month.

...yet you have crappy displays. ;-) ...which IMO are far more important that a nice laptop.

Not ergonomics at all (though that is important too). It's all about function. I have three monitors on my desk, two on my laptop and one on my *IX box. My point is that Intel must not believe what it says about productivity. Cobbler's shoes, and all... BTDT.

--
  Keith

[snip]

I did a lot of stuff for Intel (USB and Firewire) before they decided, about two years ago, that they could do without outside help.

I was always amazed at the archaic systems they had for doing simulations... their proprietary simulator drove me nuts... butt slow and with an interface from hell.

I often would drive home (~20 minutes), run the simulation on PSpice, and then go back to Intel with the answer... often they would still be trying to get their simulator to converge.

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
|  Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    |
|  Phoenix, Arizona            Voice:(480)460-2350  |             |
|  E-mail Address at Website     Fax:(480)460-2142  |  Brass Rat  |
|       http://www.analog-innovations.com           |    1962     |
             
I love to cook with wine.      Sometimes I even put it in the food.

I don't take my laptop to meetings unless I'm presenting. Having survived many generations of meeting-paraphanelia, laptops are a real boon to productivity. ...and no, I don't mean slick PowerPoint presentations.

You're telling me that *everyone* in all meetings had relevance

100% of the time? I don't do meetings unless I must, but I have perhaps 10% of the floor-time. The rest of the time I'm listening, and most of that has nothing to do with me. Being productive during that time would be good, though I find clicking to be rude.

How about carrying the laptop to the lab and working with the same tools? Then there is the hotel room, home, and any number of other situations where one wants the same environment. Indeed my work laptop had close to $100K worth of single-system licensed software in it. It sure was nice to take that on the road to the vendors!

You're being silly! Teleconferencing is certainly more productive than flying back and forth to Germany every week! Sometimes teleconferencing is the only way to fly! ;-)

Wow! Have you checked the productivity numbers recently?

There is a lot of that, however real engineers do make use of technology. ...in meetings even! What I find amazing is the lack of video projectors in our conference rooms. THese are as much as a productivity enhancement as transparencies were over pens-n-flipcharts thirty years ago.

Perhaps you're really a Luddite?

--
  Keith

There was a lot of that going around.

You wouldn't remember the name of the simulator?

Reminds my of the simulators I used 30 years ago. We had a program (script, actually) called "shuffle" that would literally shuffle the input deck when the silly simulator wouldn't converge. Sometimes we had to put a phantom component into the circuit to give it a kick so it would converge. Mainframe time was a scarce and wasting a CPU-hour on a design that refused to converge wasn't very productive.

I haven't heard about convergence problems for years though.

--
  Keith