Kindling for the Fire

I remember, when I was a kid, we had a veggy tray from an old fridge that we used for draining the oil from the engine when we changed oil. One time we had some oil in it out in the back yard and I decided to see if it would burn, so I wadded up a sheet of newspaper and lit it, and tossed it in the pan. Well nothing much happened at first, the paper just acted as a candle wick, and kept burning. But the oil started getting hotter and finally started burning too. The flames started getting bigger, so I decided it was time to put the fire out. So I turned the water hose on the pan. WHOA-HO-HO! Big mistake! The flames shot up ten or fifteen feet! What a conflagration! The water hit the boiling oil and turned to steam, and that was like blowing air on the oil. Nice way to get scalded and burned. So I learned a lesson: never put water on burning oil. Later I learned that it doesn't work with magnesium, too. :-P

So here's some kindling for the fire.

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I like starting a fire here once in a while, but it usually turns into something of a totally different topic, and the bozos don't have the courtesy to change the subject line so it just keeps on burning, and burning...

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun
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"Cannot let go" at 13mA? That seems pretty low. Hand to hand, I suppose. Hmm, is that dc or ac, and if ac at what frequency?

Thanks, - Win

Reply to
Winfield Hill

Congrats, Win - you've thrown the first stick on the fire. Thanks.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

And what do they think the difference is between "Ventricular Fibrillation" at 90 mA and "Death" at 100 mA? Other than about 5 minutes, except under the most unusual circumstances?

Possibly more accurate info at

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Low voltage electrocution is most often caused by Ventricular Fibrillation, described at:

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For the description of the unusual circumstances where Ventricular Fibrillation may not be fatal:

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Unfortunately I can't now seem to find any references which describe the exact electrical mechanism by which Venticular Fibrillation (VF) occurs, although it is well understood. Deliberatly induced VF is used to temporarily stop the heart for surgery, by applying a short, low current pulse to the nerve which fires the heart (crudely put) durung the "reset" or "succeptable" part of its cycle - essentially preventing the recharge of the ion powered synapse, so that it cannot fire, and without firing, it cannot recharge. I have read that it is not actually current which is critical, but dI/dt during the reset period, and since the dI/dt on initial contact can be much greater than during the subsequent sineusoidal current, initial contact at the right polarity and timing of the heartbeat can cause death at currents much lower than those that reliably cause death (per the standard charts). Note that GFI breakers can take up to 1/10 sec to trip, and provide no protection from initial contact electrocution!

Furthermore, individual succeptablilty to VF varies widely, and there are plenty of documented cases of death caused by only a few milliamps.

Bottom line as I see it is that contact with line voltage is a lot like Russian Roulet with 1 bullet and a few hundred empty chambers. Why risk it?

Regards, Glen

Reply to
Glen Walpert

More fuel..

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Reply to
CWatters

True - for a better effect mix in some Turpentine followed by a generous dose of fuming Nitric Acid instead;

Notes:

You do not have to ignite the Oil beforehand; you will want to devise a way to pour the nitric acid from a safe distance of about 100 m for 5 liters of oil and you probably want to do this in a place where there are no flammable items and spectators around.

Reply to
Frithiof Andreas Jensen

In article , snipped-for-privacy@notaxs.com mentioned...

[snip]

Well, so far I've managed to dodge the bullet, after all the times I've been shocked. Perhaps other people haven't been shocked as many times as those of us who deal with electricity/electronics, but they for the most part have dodged the bullet too.

But then most of life is like that. It's only a matter of time before something you do gets you. Like driving, it's only a matter of time before someone gets into an accident. Hopefully not fatal. But then more people die in auto accidents than any other accident. So does that stop us from driving? No.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 06:33:15 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun" wroth:

Almost all auto "accidents" are not really accidental. They usually result from "applied stupidity".

I think electrical shocks are similar.

Jim

Reply to
James Meyer

Tom was working on a TV chassis which was sitting on its side, power applied, cable attached. Tom bumped the cable, and, before Tom's magnificent dive to the Sencore isolation unit's power switch, the chassis bottom made contact with Tom's left forearm. Tom was left with dozens of burns from the various voltages present. :-)

This didn't even compare, though, with the time that Tom tongue-tested a cellular telephone PS, 10.6VDC, 850 mA. OUCH!!

Tom

Reply to
Tom MacIntyre

In article , snipped-for-privacy@pandora.be mentioned...

This looks like an Urban Legend to me. According to the manual for Simpson 260-6P, the most the current can be with the probe tips shorted is 75 uA. Below is an excerpt from that manual: (use Courier font.)

From Simpson 260-6P Technical Data, Table 1-1 Page 1-8

  1. Ohmmeter Circuit Effects Range: R X 1 R X 100 R X 10,000

Nominal Open Circuit Voltages: 1.5V 1.5V 9.0V

Nominal Short Circuit Current: 125mA 1.25mA 75 uA

Indeed, the low ohms range can supply 125 mA, but at 1.5V it's doubtful that that could have harmed him even with the probe tips in his skin. Also, there is no warning anywhere in the manual of harmful effects such as the one described. And as far as I know, there has never been a documented case of this accident happenening in the civilian world (this might reflect more on the U.S. Navy and the oxymoron 'military intelligence'). And there were millions of Simpson meters out there being used - they were the standard VOM for decades. So I believe there has been some serious distortion of the truth somewhere.

I got these .GIF pics of the whole manual including the schematic from somewhere on the web. It might have been navyrelics.com or some test equipment schematic website, in case anyone wants to verify this.

[snip]
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Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

In article , snipped-for-privacy@removethis.ted.ericsson.dk mentioned...

When I was a kid, we used to pull stunts like this by putting the nasty stuff in a glass bottle and shooting it from a distance with a pellet gun or .22 caliber rifle. Man, that HNO3 sure burns your mucus membranes. Makes an ugly brown cloud. This chemistry fanatic I knew was into that kind of stuff. Most of my other friends were content to just play with gunpowder. :-)

I think my favorite liquid dispensing container was a spray can with a tire valve soldered on the side. I could fill it up with the juice, and prssurize it to a hundred pounds with a tire pump. Worked great with flammable liquids, spit out a stream several yards long.

Since my dad painted, he had some of that stuff in a can. About the only thing that turpentine seemed useful for was for putting on a cat's rear end. They didn't like that very much. :-))

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Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

In article , snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net mentioned...

In this case, I used the term accident to differentiate between that cause of death and death by natural causes, such as cancer. So you could put quotes around that term.

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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

In article , tom_ snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com mentioned...

Fortunately they were only burns.

I've tongue tested (as have probably just about everyone else) a fresh

9V battery, and your battery isn't that much more. Should have given you a bit of a twinge... :-)
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Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:50:33 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun" wroth:

When I were a lad, I used to make chlorine gas and put a cotton ball with turpentine on it down into the green chlorine gas. It started "burning" almost instantly. One of the byproducts was hydrochloric acid.

Jim "Still amazed that I survived." Meyer

Reply to
James Meyer

The following can be fun too: Fill a vessel up with salt water. throw in two carbon rods connected to a car battery charger. Run it a while till most of the chlorine has gone out. Power off, put on a lid, hide behind a wall, power on and run the generated gass into a SMALL baloon. Power off when 5" diameter. Use a light plastic lid that will pop off and not hurt anyone if the gas in the vessel ignites.

Then hold the baloon at arms length, close your eyes and take a match to it. Do it with your hair wet, in wet smim trunks next to a swimming pool so you can jump in if you catch fire. We had great fun with this as kids. It is not unbearably loud but generates an incredible bang and you feel a heat pulse similar to what you get when you set off a large photoflash right against your skin.

Reply to
Stepan Novotill

I recommend wearing ear plugs.

Reply to
Stepan Novotill

OK Watson, I give up. What effect does it have on the cat??

Reply to
Stepan Novotill

I suspect the internal resistance of the battery limits what can flow through your nice, wet tongue. I don't remember the short-circuit current of a typical 9V battery, but it seems to me the last time I tested one it was in the tens of milliamps.

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Reply to
Clifton T. Sharp Jr.

I understand such a balloon may ignote if you fire a photoflash at it.

Thomas

Reply to
Zak

Seems to me wet tongues have more resistance than fresh 9V batteries. At least alkaline ones. I can usually light up a 93 bulb with one, and that takes nearly an amp. Sometimes a 9V battery can light up an 1156 bulb, and that requires well over an amp.

- Don Klipstein ( snipped-for-privacy@misty.com)

Reply to
Don Klipstein

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