Ground outdoor outlet?

Grounded and GFI.

-- Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

an

In short no. You have to do it right to meet code. There are some good reasons for the code. It tends to save lives and prevent fires.

Consider this an opportunity to upgrade at least one circuit to current code with a real ground.

-- Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"DaveC" wrote on 23/08/2003 in message ,

This would be very dangerous, even a crime, because it could put high voltage on the conduit... Never, never do that! You would put your and others life in danger. :-(

Best regards,

--
Alain
e-mail: albeguin at village dot uunet dot be
                                 - 2330 -

DaveC

nearest

other

Nehmo No. But there might be another legitimate ground nearby. Is the location of the proposed outlet near any metal water pipes?

--
    *******************
    *   Nehmo Sergheyev   *
    *******************
http://home.kc.rr.com/missouri/Susan_Talks.htm

Hi Dave, The GFI outlet has to have a ground to work. I would highly recommend installing this type of outlet as it can save your life or someone elses in wet areas - also it is mostly likely required by your local elecrical code.

Technically, no. But practically (and legally) yes.

GFCIs work by detecting whether any current is going somewhere other than the return neutral wire. No ground reference is used, it is completely differential.

No argument there.

It does???? I have often seen replies to similar questions here that specifically said that a ground was not required for the GFI outlet to function - and a GFI outlet could be used in a two wire system effectively!

The conduit would be more legitimate than a water pipe. Not saying it is okay to use a conduit. The proper way to do it would be to run a new 12/2 with ground to the panel.

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 8:40:36 -0700, Gary Tait wrote (in message ):

What are my options to run just a ground back to the panel? If I understand the code correctly, a ground isn't considered a current carrier and can be run outside the house, even buried in the earth (I'm speaking of an insulated wire, of course).

Thanks, DaveC

The NEC [210-7 (d)] allows any 2 wire (2 prong) ungrounded outlet to be replaced with a GFCI (3 prong) as long as a label is placed on each outlet that says " GFCI protected / No equipment ground" (You will usually find these stick-on labels in the GFCI package). Any of the outlets in the house can be 'upgraded' to 3 prong by adding GFCI's. (Check for variations in local codes). A GFCI does NOT require a ground to function and does nothing with the ground other than just pass it through the receptacle. Also the GFCI does not create a ground so when adding additional outlets in this manner be sure that you do not connect anything to the ground screw(s), (unless it actually goes to ground). i.e. Do not connect the grounds on 2 new outlets together even though the new cable between them will have a ground wire. This would create an isolated ground situation which is much more dangerous than no ground at all. Kevin

an

A GFCI receptacle does not need an equipment ground wire to work (third wire, almost always Bare or GREEN). In fact if there is no grounding wire do not add one to the box unless you take it back to the electrical panel.

The GFCI looks at the current passing from hot to neutral. It there is a Difference more than 5 mA it trips. It works with or without an equipment grounding condictor attached to the green screw on the receptacle.

You can safely use a GFCI on a two wire circuit. You are supposed to however use the sticker that comes with it telling there is NO EQUIPMENT GROUND attached to the GFCI.

In fact the only way legally you can replace a two wire receptacle with a 3 wire one, has equipment grounding capability, is to use a GFCI and the sticker " no equipment ground " on a two wire circuit. When replacing the receptacle you use the LINE terminals on the GFCI. The GFCI will also protect other outlets installed downstream from the GFCI. Those outlets are connected to the LOAD terminals of the GFCI.

Make sure you read the installiation instruction that are supplied with the receptacal when installing it. Leviton includes a nice sheet of instructions.

Gary K8IZ Washington State Resident Registered Linux User # 312991

Sorry about the incorrect information on the GFI needing a ground to function. Outdoor outlets are much safer if they are grounded as much equipment that is connected to these outlets normally uses the third ground conductor for your protection. It is possible that your existing outlets are grounded if the wires are run through metal conduit and the outlets mounted in metal outlet boxes. If not then you most certainly have no ground and the best solution would be to run a new wire back to the breaker box.

Actually, a GFCI does NOT require a Ground to function. In fact, the ground hole of the GFCI is NOT connected to anything in the GFCI. For an inside outlet, installing a GFCI in an ungrounded system is accepted practice, provides shock protection, and will meet Code. I do not know off-hand what the rulse are for outdoor outlets.

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The NEC allows grounding to any verified ground source when retrofitting two-wire systems. That's not to say that it's a good idea, but it's better than nothing. Best to pull a wire back to the service ground. There's also a rule about the type of enclosure for outside outlets. They must be completely covered...even in use. The old style plug covers, which covered the outlet only when unused, are no longer acceptable. The new ones have a large shield or door which covers the entire shebang, with slots underneath to allow passage of cables.

The old ones would allow water to wick up--or dribble into--the outlet itself when a cord was plugged in...only protected well when unused.

jak

an

You pretty well have to follow the path of the original circuit as well as you can.

Gary Tait

it

DaveC

Nehmo That would be fine, but if you run anything back to the panel, you can just about as easily run the whole romex.

DaveC

can be

insulated

Nehmo Under normal circumstances a ground wire doesn't carry current, but it has to be prepared to do so in the event of say a short from the hot to the case of an appliance. If the case were grounded, then even if you were holding the case, you would be outside the circuit and unaffected. The ground wire bonded to the case would carry the errant current.

If there were no corrosion problems, you *could* burry an uninsulated ground wire. The ground wire is supposed to be electrically connected to the real ground, and that is exactly what a ground electrode does.

And a metal water pipe does make a good ground. There are certain considerations: it should also be bonded to the neutral bus on the main service panel; there shouldn't be any non-metal fittings between your connection and the pipe entrance to the house; and there should be a jumper around the water meter. In other words, it should be electrically continuous to the ground.

NEC compliance is somewhat different than electrical and practical reality. I understand NEC 2002 didn't allow water pipes a supplemental ground connection.

This may confuse more that elucidate, but the issue is discussed here

But, of course, you didn't say a water pipe was available.

--
    *******************
    *   Nehmo Sergheyev   *
    *******************
http://home.kc.rr.com/missouri/Susan_Talks.htm

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:37:20 -0700, Ralph Farr wrote (in message ):

No worries, Mate!

It turns out that the rooms where I was adding the outdoor outlet did have a

3-wire circuit. This extension of the house is newer than the original house, which has only 2-wire circuits.

So, the ground issue is a non-issue.

But I learned much about GFCI and grounding requirements thanks to all who contributed here.

Thanks! Dave C

Sure you can. But you can save some trouble by just hooking the hot wire to a metal plate and marking it "Palm Here".

--
"Here, Outlook Express, run this program."  "Okay."

actually most all outdoor outlets have to be GFCI according to the NEC. I seem to remember a couple of exceptions when there is no access to an outlet, like a single outlet an appliance like a freezer is plugged into in the garage, though not technically out doors still closer to ground than most outlets indoors.

Now when you upgrade an outdoor piece of equipment like an air conditioner, the ground mounted version you are required to provide a service outlet within 25 feet of it and it needs to be GFCI. That is true for those roof mounted air conditioners also.

The real point was the GFCI does not need the equipment grounding wire to be safe as it does not use that wire.

All interesting stuff.

Gary K8IZ Washington State Resident Registered Linux User # 312991