but it vectorized as 1 color because i didn't take the time to play with WinTopo.
embedded 12 times? huh? 12 layers?
now think this through... if you have a multi-color image, you need 1 screen layer for each color. alternately you could use one of those whatever the exact name is... ink jet things they use to label stuff like the extruded plastic sheets they make at a local plant here.
brs, mike
Tracing over a background image isn't quite the same as making a layout from a bitmap in software.
--
Then there's duct tape ...
(Garrison Keillor)
nofr@sbhevre.pbzchyvax.pb.hx
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:16:53 -0700, John Larkin Gave us:
snip
It is a silly concept. Note how it is not a mainstream package. You are a silly conceptualizer.
On 24 Aug 2003 21:46:11 -0400, DJ Delorie Gave us:
Dude. You are stupid. In order for an 0402 layout to work, the parts have to be in the right place. That means that the software HAS to be able to resolve that far if it can do accurate layouts of that size part. Get a clue.
Go take your meds.
On 24 Aug 2003 21:47:09 -0400, DJ Delorie Gave us:
It is impractical because people that do layouts do them from schematics. Also, it would be just as easy to get the part package, and place it than it would be to get the overlay, then get the part, then re-scale the overlay to match, then place the part because the layout package requires it... etc etc etc... When all you should be doing is grab the part from the library, and place the damned thing, and then add wires to it (traces dufus).
It is impractical because it is a waste of time.
I've got plenty of clues. What I'm missing is an answer to my question, which you seem to be unable to provide. The question is: what does your layout package do differently, that makes it more accurate? I know how to do layouts, and I know what a 0402 package is, what I don't know is what your layout package does differently that makes it "more accurate". Does it have better resolution than 1 mil? Does it allow for sub-mil positioning? Does it have a better zoom feature?
Since I use PCB, and have the sources to it, if there's some feature that makes it "more accurate" I might be able to add that feature to PCB as well, if only you'd tell me what that feature is.
We bring in DXFs all the time. It's often easier to do the mechanical side of PC designs in Autocad, then bring them in and use that as a placement template. This is especially useful when we have to, say, mate up a PCB with an enclosure. PADS apparently won't import a BMP to a PCB or a schematic, but it would be handy if it did... we could use that for logos, cartoon characters, "comments" on schematics, stuff like that. Most PCB programs are terrible drawing/drafting programs.
John
A fundamental scientific premis: You cannot prove a negative.
Dana Frank Raymond
as
The vast majority of layouts are done beginning with schematics - in fact it is essential to ensure that the schematics agree with the wiring of the PCB. The 'idea' of a circuit is first expressed in schematic form (unless from a HDL, but thats a different story), hence thats were the PCB design process begins.
However, there is a very small class of PCB layout package use where one must copy a PCB. Sometimes this is done by product maintenance people, by reverse-engineers, or to rescue the development path of a product originally done in a defunct PCB package (anyone remember Orcad PCB? Yucckkk!).
Dana Frank Raymond
Especially when positive cases exist.
John
Wow, this program does exactly what I want. Thank you!!!
joe
Yes I actually tried that briefly before I posted the question, it was just too cumbersome to work with. I would have to blow up the transparency image like 8x to be useful, which means I would need to switch between multiple transparencies.
Someone else suggested circad, which looks like it was custom made for what I want to do, it has a reverse engineering mode which imports and scales background images in its layout mode, awesome. I downloaded the demo, the graphical interface is kinda unique and clunky, but typical of layout programs.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:41:37 GMT, "Dana Raymond" Gave us:
That's what I said... Twice now.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:41:37 GMT, "Dana Raymond" Gave us:
Nope. I still see no benefit. A fresh layout with packages pulled from libraries is easier. Pin spacings are standardized such that I could use raw pads instead of library parts and do the job easier than tracing would be as far as I'm concerned.
Layout from scratch is easier. Any physical nomenclature about the board's application requisites would be maintained. It takes no more, if not, hardly any more time, and the results are more reliable. We have several old designs where the new design looks very similar. They were STILL freshly done layouts. Many had the same schematics. Of course, our part count is fairly low, because as I stated before, four layers or less, and we do miniature stuff, so one only has so much real estate to work with.
Get your application's workspace into the baseline grid resolve that an early autocad package had or such. Then you'll be there.
Ask the Gerber baby what the tightest resolve the language allows for is. I think it is one half the smallest aperture size on the photoplotter.
On 25 Aug 2003 11:24:24 -0400, DJ Delorie Gave us:
It is probably the base level grid that the workspace uses. Some packages are 2D and layers. Some are 3D environments.
The resolve in the package I described must be sub mil, because the coordinate display resolves to sub mil accuracy. The minimum grid step is only one mil, however. For sub mil, the grid would have to be unsnapped. It shouldn't matter for four layers or less, as I indicted, it would all one needs. If you need sub mil accuracy, then even standard PCB manufacturing won't get you there from what I can tell. Now hybridized articles, and specialized substrates can be more resolved, sure. Run-o-the-mill PCB runs have a maximum resolve as the "hairys" will get ya if ya run stuff to close to each other. Copper dendrites from hell.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:41:36 -0700, John Larkin Gave us:
Depends on the layout package as to that capability.
Actually, many layout packages have fine editors that allow all the nomenclature required for a package to be rendered. From silk screen to hidden pin descriptions. It has to be done anyway.
Sounds like the lack of a good mech eng, and layout personage. Hell we can do it from a glance practically.
Our time is devoted to turning product and quick time-to-market stuff, we don't have time for logos anywhere but on the labeling... so far. Especially in these lean times.
Ok, it sounds like your package is no more accurate than PCB, which does everything you claim your package does. Or at least, I'm not going to get any useful information from you about it. In either case, there's no point in asking you about this any more.
I'm not surprised you're too stupid to realize what the question was. You obviously don't understand enough about pcb layout packages (or software development) to realize what I was asking.
PCB is at
PCB has 1 mil accuracy, both in element sizing and placement, and an
8x zoom (8 pixels = 1 mil). It supports up to 8 layers and a 30x30 inch board. The zoom limits and number of layers are compile-time constants, so if you need more, it only takes a few minutes to change them. Also included is autoplace, a gridless autorouter, and a trace optimizer. Output formats are Postscript and RS-274X, including full support for masks, paste, and silk on both sides.
Ok, this is useful information. No, PCB doesn't have sub-mil spacing, even off-grid.
Moronic accusation of the *century*.
How about answering DJ's question ?
Its simple, do you need it repeated ?
In other words, you don't *comprehend* DJ's question ?
Be polite to DJ, he's a well respected software author. Who knows, if you answer his questions, *you* might learn something :)
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Sounds like you're storing all coordinates as 16-bit integers. Why not just use floats? They're about as fast on a modern CPU.
John
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