Anti blackout device ?

Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in

2020" applications ?

-A

Reply to
Andre
Loading thread data ...

One word: expense. Aside from practicality issues (which are, actually, related to expense issues also).

Reply to
Garrett Mace

One of the main problems of superconductors (as I understand it) is that they stop being superconductors if the current density gets too high. eg they might be alright for low current applications but not really high power.

If I've got that wrong please let me know.

Colin

--
Delete BOX to get my real email address
"Andre"  wrote in message
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
CWatters

Reply to
w_tom

In article , testing snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com mentioned...

An anti-blackout device is one of my LED creations. When a blackout occurs, just turn it on and POOF! The blackout is gone! ;-)

They said that even the running reserve generators couldn't begin to generate power fast enough to help in the recent blackout. It takes some time to turn up the steam to the generators.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS?   Check HERE First:###
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

Yeah, and the trend is for lower Jc's at higher Tc's . So those brilliant new HTS ceramic materials are hopeless for this application .

What I am talking about is the old style LTS materials, like niobium/titanium .

-A

Reply to
Andre

I'm not sure about the east coast as I didn't care too much what they did with the power once it was "over the fence", however supposedly one of the safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be a certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about 5% of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe that is a federal requirement. I should have also mentioned that I know for a fact that MURPHY'S LAW thrives on power plants...more than anywhere else. I saw a unit knocked offline two nights in a row when the janitor set his broom against a touchy switch on the wall. We were still scratching our heads while we had just got the unit back after a 24 hour struggle when the janitor came in, set his broom there and POOF! did it again - I couldn't believe my eyes...

Control

generators...

be

Reply to
Nocturnal1

In article , snipped-for-privacy@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

[snip]

They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly, because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the generator up to full output.

It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

[snip]
--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS?   Check HERE First:###
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

And some industrial sites (such as the one where I work) use sophisticated motor-generator sets with dynamic flywheels to provide truly UNINTERUPPTED standby power even up to the megawatt level.

We have a couple, each the size of a semi-truck, that run all the critical computer, network, and production equipment. They will keep the fab running for several minutes while the diesel generators fire up.

Reply to
Richard Crowley

The power plant startup time frames varies alot. For smaller MW units (about

130 MW) on gas fuel, they can be started and online in about 8-12 hours, sometimes faster if the boiler & turbine are still warm. Boiler temperature and pressure and turbine expansion rates are the most limiting factors. It takes a well coordinated and trained crew to get it right every time - every startup is different from the last. Larger MW units take even longer. A 330MW unit may take up to 18 hours (also dependent on temps & expansions) and 700MW supercritical boilers up to 24 hours or more. (all these times are if nothing breaks or goes wrong - and things break all the time, so operators have to be part magicians to make it all still work and meet the commitment time for parallel to the system). Hydroelectric, on the other hand, are very quick to spin up and they are more prevalent in the west. Of course, their use is limited to the amount of water available and that is also closely monitored. The whole operation is a dynamic & continuous choreographed balancing act and subject to blackout failures because of the very nature of its design. That is why I said that we'd all be better off with replacing every roof shingle with a solar panel. ~Tom

a
5%
Reply to
Nocturnal1

Spinning reserve is just that - a small percentage of unused generation that is immediately available to the system and is already spinning to make up for sudden system demand surges, like those Sunday mornings when the superbowl comes on and everybody's TVs and microwaves start up.(Don't laugh - I've seen it on the meters). But a multi-state blackout would make that 5% spinning reserve a mere drop in the bucket. ~Tom

a
5%
Reply to
Nocturnal1

We had a M-G set back in the '80s for our mainframe. It was a GE, and sat outside in a lean-to shed against the bldg. It was running at

208V, at about 80 to 90 amps for each of the 3 phases later after we upgraded and added more disks and mainframe eqpt. The motor was coupled to the gen with a coupler made from two pieces of steel much like a universal joint, but instead of bearings, it had a dozen or more rings of steel, each about the size of a CD, except the hole was much bigger. One day it started sounding different, so we looked inside. The steel rings were being thrown out! They had flexed so many times over the years that they became fatigued and were breaking up. And at 3600 RPM, they weren't staying put, they were flying out! So we had to bring down the mainframe one weekend and get the 'field techs' who were now just grease monekeys to unbolt the half-ton motor and separate the two and replace the coupler. The hour meter had over 88 thousand hours on it before it froze up and quit working - that's over ten years.

But it was never satisfactory, since at 80 to 90 amps per phase, the flywheel wasn't good for many revs before it slowed down and power dropped - maybe for a half second power outage. Oh yeah, one day it quit. We took a look in the shed, and we found that the fuse box, the big one with the ON-OFF switch, had fried. The contacts that clamped the big fuses on each end had overheated and as usual, got more oxidized as they heated up, and then fried. So we had to replace the fuse box.

Another time, we had a power failure and when the power came back on, the M-G started spinning up, and the power only in the computer room went off again. So we investigated and found that one of the two big transformers, only the one feeding the computer room, wasn't humming outside. Uh-oh. Something major was wrong. We thought at first it might be a burned out transformer. In any case, it was big-time high voltage, so the high voltage electricians were called in. They found that the fuse, not on the 208V secondary, but on the 4KV primary had blown. This was a 15 amp high voltage fuse, immersed in oil. It looked like two strands of solder, maybe 3 or 4 inches long, between some tin strips. We were down for most of the day while the electrician searched around the county for a supplier that stocked such a beast. They got a higher current replacement, maybe 20 amps. Apparently the motor-generator was drawing a whole lotta current during initial spin-up. Well, what didja expect? It might've been a

25 or 30 HP motor, I forget. The flywheel was made out of heavy steel, and it doesn't atart instantly either!

So we decided that it was time to upgrade our power supply, and we disconnected the M-G and put a 80 kW UPS made by Exide in the computer room. It worked great for another half dozen years until we demolished the building and moved into our new bldg with a new 150 kW Exide UPS. We've been sold on the big UPSes ever since, we would never go back to an M-G set. Outside, we have a huge 300 kW Caterpillar diesel generator to back up commercial power to the UPS.

5 or so seconds after the power fails, it's revved up and purring, putting out power. Purring? It's so loud that standing next to it, even shouting, it's hard to hear a person next to you!

Nowadays they have those super high speed flywheel energy storage systems that they bury in a pit in the ground. Also there are micro turbine power generators. From our experience, I doubt that your flywheel system would store enough energy to run things for several minutes. Maybe several seconds, tho.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS?   Check HERE First:###
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

In article , snipped-for-privacy@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I believe it was. They pump some water into it at night when there's excess power, and during the peak demands, let the water out thru the pumps to generate peak power. Well, assuming what you say about hydroelectric power being quicker, one would think that they would have a good, fast source of reserve power. But it didn't seem to prevent the big mess from happening.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS?   Check HERE First:###
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun

Hydroelectric power systems in NYPP are what kept some isolated upstate NY cities in power (Rochester, Syracuse?). Hydroelectric generators are more flexible to changing loads. Those hydroelectric power sources combined with power from Quebec were used to restore the NYPP grid.

I believe the grid must have at least 13% (or is it 18%) power reserve. Many are providing spinning reserve using natural gas fired turbines which also respond faster (but cost more to make electricity). Spinning reserve in NYC using such generators operate to prevent another 1977 blackout. I believe NYC must keep 80% spinning reserve on-line during times of potential instability - such as thunderstorms in the West Chester county and adjacent upstate regions.

Normally spinning reserve can respond fast enough because control centers are required to talk to one another. Failures have many minutes to be averted if adjacent control regions are informed of impending problems.

Control problems are where this blackout was created. FirstEnergy was not talking to anyone. MISO kept calling FirstEnergy for information and getting no straight answers. Apparently the FirstEnergy control center was poorly equipped, had no standard operational plans, and often operated their equipment too close to 100% capacity. Other utilities such as ITC did not even know that FirstEnergy was having problems for hours. Had they known, ITC, et al could have taken preventive measures. FirstEnergy's response (failure to shed loads when all transmission lines into the Cleveland Akron Canton area were overloaded AND failure to inform adjacent control centers) started a cascade of overloaded power plants and transmission lines. So many as to create a cascading blackout. FirstEnergy's response was so poor that they caused tens of power plants to trip out at once.

PJM had equipment and controls sufficient to prevent such a catastrophe. NE ISO and PJM both could effectively 'island' themselves because they had effective control systems. First PJM stopped FirstEnergy from creating a blackout from the west (on two connections). Then they stopped a cascade blackout from the north (8 connections). Apparently PJM did this without receiving required warnings from FirstEnergy about impending problems. Problems that are often known hours in advance.

Sp> One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I

Reply to
w_tom

I was told that they are rated for 10 minutes at our current average load. These are not conventional hard-coupled M-G sets with flywheels. They are sophisticated, magnetically coupled flywheels that dynamically draw potential energy from the rotating mass while maintaining voltage and frequency.

Great stories. What we go throgh to keep those darn computers happy!

Reply to
Richard Crowley

As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial) opinions, just his version of the 'facts'.

As for my own opinion, I think if the 'islands' were less dependent on each other, one island would not be able to drag the whole system down, as happened in this latest fiasco. Sort of like the one mountain climber, with the rope line connecting them all, pulling the whole bunch into the chasm.

w_tom wrote:

--
----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Lizard Blizzard

Er, change potential to kinetic, above. ;-)

--
----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Lizard Blizzard

Which part do you have problems with? How spinning reserve works? FirstEnergy's inability to even know what was happening or shed loads for hours as their transmission lines were overloaded and going down? Or why mountain climbers are safer when they are roped together?

Benchmark for why grids can work and how they should work are found > As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial)

Reply to
w_tom

In article , w snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com mentioned...

I saw this morning that one of the countries in Europe had a huge blackout. It was in Italy, and the powerlines coming from France failed.

formatting link

Recently there was also a blackout in England. Har-har. Whoever it was that was bragging that "in Europe, we don't have massive power blackouts" can now eat crow. Should've kept his mouth shut!

I can't speak for others, but I treat every "fact" from w-tom as just an opinion until I have verified it for myself. I suggest you do the same, not for just w_tom but for everyone.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS?   Check HERE First:###
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun
[snip]

But it was a socialist blackout, and that's good for the people, just ask Sloman ;-)

...Jim Thompson

--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
 Click to see the full signature
Reply to
Jim Thompson

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.