Xilinx 3s8000?

Why not use bricks with matrix or bus wired fpgas?, and let them share the load. They got lvds etc.. so they can ship data quick within a board. If one needs more horsepower one simple adds another brick to the backplane.

Spartan is the low-cost FPGA product line, and thus more limited in size. Virtex -2 and Virtex-4 offer bigger sizes and higher speed (at higher cost)

If the design does not fit, partition it into several chips, probably at minimal performance loss (if done right).

Peter Alfke, Xilinx

Maybe you should talk to XIlinx about lending you a devboard for one of their high-end chips, in return for some good publicity when you crack it..?

high-end chips, in

Exactly what I was thinking Mike. :-) What's frustrating is that although I could see spending a thousand or two thousand dollars for a development board, I simply cannot justify spending $2,495 of my retirement nest egg for the software tools alone.

I wonder if Peter Alfke of Xilinx would care to comment on the possibility of my acquiring a loaner devboard and development s/w? I'm located in the San Gabriel Valley just North-West of Los Angeles. The email address I'm using ( snipped-for-privacy@spamex.com) is valid by the way, at least until it starts getting too much spam, and then I'll change it to News6, News7, etc.

Some of the large computer software makers (MatLab, MapleSoft, etc) offer non-profit discounts for educational and personal non-commercial use. It would be wonderful if Xilinx (my favorite) or one of the other FPGA vendors would offer some sort of low cost alternative to me and those in my situation who would love to use your high end FPGAs, but cannot afford the cost of the s/w development tools.

Thanks,

Ron

Ron,

We already sponsor this sort of research at many universities and schools.

If you want to go play, there are many excellent programs in graduate education on the subject.

I am aware of a very active group at UCLA.

Aust> Mike Harris>

uh... would you mind giving me a pointer to these guys ?

lukasz

Play? Research? How insulting. Didn't you read my original message at all? There is no play or research involved. I suppose since this is a hobby of mine, it could be considered "play" in a sense, but there is also a $30,000 reward for factoring RSA-704 which isn't normally associated with "play".

I have already designed and tested my circuit (both in simulation and on a *REAL* FPGA, but using a smaller bus width). There is absolutely NO research whatsoever involved, it's purely a pragmatic matter of implementation and being able to afford your overpriced software design tools on my retirement savings.

For what it's worth, I've had Fermat's Method of integer factorization running on a Lattice LFEC20E FPGA for a couple of weeks so far (it's the only algorithm small enough to fit on the Lattice board), but since it's a sub-optimal factorization method, I have little or no hope that it will ever find the answer. ECM is another matter however, because it's well known and respected in numerical analysis circles. That and its relative simplicity compared with NFS is the reason I chose it.

Gads, play indeed.

Ron

Aust> Aust>

Ron,

I play everyday. Play is what some people call work who don't enjoy what they do. My oldest brother Ron had a great attitude: if you don't look forward to walking through the door in the morning: don't - go get another job.

To help you win a prize is not in the realm of 'sponsored tax deductible activities' that Xilinx is inclined to support.

I meant no disrespect. If you call it "hard work" then that is fine by me.

That prize for factoring is an incentive to continue the research in cypher breaking, and improving computational methods.

We need no such prize: our customers have real problems (3-D Xray imaging, 3G base stations, joint task strike fighter plane, Mars Rovers, gigabit routers, etc.) that need our devices every day to solve their problems.

That prize was 1.73 billion dollars (US)last year (Xilinx sales).

If you feel that you can win the prize, you should invest your own money, and build the "solver." I have no doubt it will be done by someone, and soon (since there are published papers on how to use FPGAs to do this now for less money).

Aust> Aust>

C'mon Ron, have a sense of perspective.

You claim it is not research because it is already well-understood, and it is not play (but rather a hobby), because you want to make money by winning the prize. And Austin told you that you have "competition", since several universities try to do the same thing.

Maybe we can find a way, but please don't be too thin-skinned.

Peter Alfke

Hi Ron,

I have four suggestions for you:

1. there is a huge difference between "integer factorization" and "factorization of RSA numbers". Methods for the first one that do not work for the second one are among others "Fermat's Method" and EC-factorization (but there are some exceptions).

1. get a cheap medium size FPGA. Altera CycloneII or Xilinx Spartan 3 on a cheap board. Re-write your code until it fits, I have seen this sort of stuff in mush smaller devices than 3s4000. read some articles on, e.g. CPU design. And learn how to use your FPGA!

2. I have already seen some of your code and I suggest you publish it somewhere so people can learn from it and/or help improving it.

1. 30000 USD is probably a tiny fraction of what it will cost to factor a RSA-704 number. my guess is that it would cost between 50 to 100M USD today, and that does not include the billions that have already been used for research in universities and various TLAs...

Of course, in your case the journey is more rewarding than the contest reward itself. You will learn a lot, as I did 10-15 years ago when I was first introduced this stuff.

good luck, and have fun!

thanks ;o) l

Lukasz,

You are welcome. The UC system in California is as impersonnal as ever: if you want a great education, you have to go and get it (no one in the UC system is there to help you - there are at least fifty students waiting to get in, so if you drop out, who cares? NO ONE!).

So, if I have helped in some small way, that is great.

For anyone offended by my opinion (backed by my experience of being a student, professional engineering employee, and a professor at UC Berkeley), I offer no apology. Been there, saw that. Seen that it hasn't changed (nor why should/could it?).

Great schools (all campuses), highly recommended. Just don't expect anyone to hold your hand, that is all.

For a kinder and gentler college experience, there is this school right across the bay from Berkeley....(also a great school). I am sure there is the equivalent in the LA basin as well...

Just don't ask me to cheer for their football teams.

Go Bears!

Aust> Aust>

Hi Ron,

I "play" most days too with large FPGAs as a consultant, small business owner, and hobbiest. There are much more affordable ways to tackle these larger problems than rushing out and paying retail that many of us use instead. Building your own FPGA boards is not nearly as difficult as it might seem, if you keep a KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) design goal clearly in mind. I've helped other homebrew folks do the same, drop me a note if you need some guidance.

Consider using NOS (New Old Stock) parts available from Gray Market sources, such as Ebay. Your 100,000 LUTs can be found in ten Xilinx XC2V1000-4FF896C FPGAs listed in item 7606455467 for roughly $730 US. I believe that seller has a few more as well, and they have been listed for some time, so if you made an offer, they might be available for quite a bit less if you are willing to take them all. Add in the $300 price of 2 4-layer PCBs from PCB Express, and you too can have your own NEW homebrew FPGA super computer running for about $1,000 US in a month or two of fun hardware/software projects.

A little more risk (but manageable) is recycling FPGAs from scrapped boards available from a number of sources, including Ebay. Reballing FPGA can also be done at home, using little more than a toaster oven (with electronic controls, or a convection oven). Larger Altera and Xilinx FPGA's can frequently be had for under $100ea as scrap. See Ebay lot 7613930035. Using recycled parts, you can save another 80% or more off NOS parts, but they require an investment in reballing supplies (min order on preforms). A larger 300,000 LUT or more home FPGA super computer can easily be built under $1,000US using this strategy.

I reball/recycle parts frequently to cut costs in prototyping (including reusing first run parts on a prototype design when I cut the second/third revison boards). This can substantially cut prototyping costs for contracts, as well as hobby projects.

Have Fun! John

Ron ( snipped-for-privacy@spamex.com) wrote: : Glory and riches are showered upon those who successfully factor one of : the RSA Challenge Numbers (see note [1]) ;-). I would like to be the : first to factor an RSA number using a standalone FPGA development : board(s) (ie; not connected to a conventional computer).

: If such a device did become available, my only hope for acquiring the : requisite hardware/software would be to work out a deal with the FPGA : vendor or someone to lend me the necessary development board and s/w : tools in exchange for the potential fame and glory, since I am but a : humble retired engineer/hobbyist. :-)

Ron, Perhaps you could partner with a local university and form an undergraduate project based on this? I say this because universities have access to this rather nice board at an affordable price...

Unless you could shrink the design you'd need to join several boards...

Cheers cds

I complain about your software design tools being too overpriced for a mere retired engineer to afford, and you come back bragging about Xilinx's profits last year?

Personally I think it's unethical for you Xilinx fuckwits to be using a public forum to promote your products.

Ron

Ron, here is some friendly advice, from one senior citizen to another:

If you expect some asistance of any kind, calling us "you Xilinx fuckwits" is not a very helpful comment. It's not appropriate under any circumstances. It just reflects badly on you, I am sorry to say...

Peter Alfke, Xilinx Applications

Not any more I don't. I realized right away that you money grubbing SOB's from Xilinx couldn't care less about promoting your products to anyone who doesn't come to you with bulging pockets full of money.

The irony is that the Lattice support people I have corresponded with have been very helpful and friendly.

Ron