Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10

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It looks like Intel has learned to count from Microsoft.  The previous
generation of Cyclone was Cyclone-5.


https://www.altera.com/products/fpga/cyclone-series/cyclone-10.html

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Gabor

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On 2/16/2017 11:52 AM, GaborSzakacs wrote:
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Maybe they doubled the number because they're twice as good?

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Rick C

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On 2/16/2017 2:10 PM, rickman wrote:
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Cyclone 10 GX

"Twice higher performance than the previous generation of low cost FPGAs"

tee hee

Although it is interesting to note the GX (high performance) series has  
8 input ALMs, 20 kb memory blocks, 27x27 bit multipliers, floating point  
multipliers, coefficient register banks, all in a 20 nm process while  
the LP series has 4 input LUTs, 9 kb memory blocks, 18x18 bit  
multipliers, no floating point or coefficient register banks and no  
statement of process.  It would appear that to achieve low(er) power  
they opted for an older process, leveraging existing series of FPGAs for  
the LP series.  Like a Cyclone V redo.

It would be interesting to see what sort of stack CPU could be made with  
the GX series.  I wonder if the design software is out yet?

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Rick C

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On 2/16/2017 2:37 PM, rickman wrote:
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Looks to me like there is no support for these devices as yet.

They mention an M164 package which seems to be a type of BGA, but I  
can't find it in their package data sheet... or more accurately I can't  
find their package data sheet.  I keep finding package info on "mature"  
devices or other obsolete sheets.  I have a copy from 2007 which shows  
MBGA packages with 0.5 mm ball spacing, but the 164 pin part is not  
there.  The really weird part is the package data sheets I can find list  
updates to add the M164 part, but it is nowhere to be found in the  
technical data.   I guess they just copied the update table when they  
made the "mature device" data sheet.  Even that is dated 2011.  WTF!?

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Rick C

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
rickman wrote:
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As far as I can tell this is (very) advanced information.  I have to
wonder if the announcement was timed to take some wind out of the
sails of the MicroSemi "PolarFire" announcement:

https://www.microsemi.com/products/fpga-soc/fpga/polarfire-fpga

At the moment, both the Altera and MicroSemi offerings seem to be  
unobtainium...

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Gabor

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10

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I think the numbering is the least concern with this "new" family (no surpr
ise, as there is already Max 10, Arria 10 and Stratix 10 - with similar jum
ps).

However, it is pretty obvious that:
Cyclone 10 LP = Cyclone III / IV E
Cyclone 10 GX = Arria 10 GX

(Such a strategy has long tradition for Altera, look at FLEX10K/ACEX1K, Cyc
lone III/IV E, MAX II/V...)

It is mainly a marketing / pricing move, which of course is OK if there is  
pricing benefit for the customer. But I always found the way it was communi
cated pretty misleading... (Very dishonest. Fake news.) (I had no contact t
o an Altera/Intel FAE recently - not sure how they communicate this.)

However, especially Arria 10 GX for Cyclone pricing could be a real deal. (
Great deal. So wonderful.)

The main question (for many applications) is if Cyclone 10 GX has a lower p
ower consumption than Arria 10 Gx - I doubt.

Regards

Thomas (sorry, couldn't resist...)

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On Thursday, February 16, 2017 at 10:16:54 PM UTC+2, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com w
rote:
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us
prise, as there is already Max 10, Arria 10 and Stratix 10 - with similar j
umps).
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So, if 10LP is renamed IV E, which in turn is renamed III, does it follow t
hat 10LP is manufactured on TSMC 60 nm processs ?  

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Including the two smallest ones?  
Hopefully, you are too pessimistic about it.
If 10CX085 and 10CX105 are in reality just 10AX027 with majority of die fus
ed off then its ratio of performance to static power consumption will be qu
it bad.
It happened to smaller members of Arria-II family and it was not nice.

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yclone III/IV E, MAX II/V...)
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s pricing benefit for the customer. But I always found the way it was commu
nicated pretty misleading... (Very dishonest. Fake news.) (I had no contact
 to an Altera/Intel FAE recently - not sure how they communicate this.)
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 (Great deal. So wonderful.)
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 power consumption than Arria 10 Gx - I doubt.
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Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On 2/17/2017 5:21 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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I wonder how long it will be before Altera transitions over to Intel  
fabs and/or if that will be an improvement or not.

It's interesting to me that the low end of the Cyclone 10 LP is just 6  
kLUTs.  That's my territory.  No pricing yet and the packaging is still  
pretty bad for low end work.  The choices are huge BGAs, a huge TQFP and  
smaller BGA that requires very fine artwork on the PCB which means no  
low cost PCB processes.  I guess I could just use every other pin or  
something.

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Rick C

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 12:29:39 PM UTC+2, rickman wrote:
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According to my understanding, official line is the same as before acquisition:
only high end (Stratix 10) will be manufactured at Intel's fabs. The rest remains on TSMC.
But I didn't follow the news too closely.

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I can not judge for sure, but it seems to me that "your territory" is MAX-10.

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Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On 2/17/2017 7:19 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
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I didn't realize MAX10 had ADC on chip as well as multipliers and  
memory.  That's interesting.  I can bring in lowish resolution signals  
and do signal processing on them.  16 bit ADC/DAC would be nicer.  They  
still give me packaging heartburn.  Even in these small parts they  
emphasize high I/O counts and fine pitch packages, *very* fine pitch.

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Rick C

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
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 that 10LP is manufactured on TSMC 60 nm processs ?  

This is indeed the case, it is even somewhere on their homepage, google for
 Cyclone 10 and 60nm... (Maybe they use a different flavour of 60nm process
 with better characteristics, but I do not really think so. Cyclone IV was  
at least the shrinked from 65nm to 60nm, but this was also done for Cyclone
 III). Interestingly, on the TSMC homepage, there is no 60nm process, only  
65nm and 55nm..)

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used off then its ratio of performance to static power consumption will be  
quit bad.

I fully agree on this. It they had a smaller die (with reduced power consum
ption) and Cyclone pricing, this would be a real good product... But I doub
t it. Another interesting questions is if there also comes a Cyclone 10 SX  
with SoC?

I think this is mainly a marketing thing to have something against Spartan  
7, until the real new stuff is ready.

Regards,

Thomas

www.entner-electronics.com - Home of EEBlaster and JPEG Codec

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 5:25:47 PM UTC+2, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
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Yes, it's here now.
https://www.altera.com/products/fpga/cyclone-series/cyclone-10/cyclone-10-lp/overview.html

I don't think it was here 4-5 days ago, when I first heard about Cyclone-10.
But may be I just didn't pay attention.

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If it was really a shrink.
60nm can well be just a name for the variant of 65nm process that improved some characteristics, but not necessarily a density.

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Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com writes:

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Do you have any information that the Cyclone 10 GX will actually replace
the Arria 10 GX?

I would expect the Cyclone 10 GX to replace the Cyclone V GX. The
Cyclone 10 GX transceivers are slower than the current Arria 10
transceivers according to link posted earlier.

I think the 10 was introduced as this was the 10th generation FPGA from
Altera. I can remember LSI Logic did a similar name change with their
ASIC's when the G10 family was introduced.


//Petter

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.sig removed by request.  

Re: Intel (Altera) announces Cyclone-10
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Please note that I do not "have information", I just look at the datasheet  
and outline the obvious...

I do not think that the new family will replace anything, all the families  
will coexist for quite some time. Of course new projects will mostly use ne
wer families... (I think one of the reasons for the new family is to allow  
Altera to make more aggressive pricing for new projects and keep the pricin
g high for the "old" families, esp. Arria 10, that are already used in prod
ucts)

It would still be interesting to hear if there is maybe some subtle differe
nce, e.g. in power consumption. Maybe someone has already access to an powe
r estimator of Cyclone 10 GX to compare with Arria 10 (esp. the smallest pa
rts of Cyclone 10 GX)?

Regards,

Thomas

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