FPGA's as DSP's

Do you have a question? Post it now! No Registration Necessary

Translate This Thread From English to

Threaded View
I have heard that FPGA's can have a much larger throughput, dollar per
dollar, than a special purpose DSP chip because of their parallelism.
Anyone here have any experience or pointers on this topic?

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
http://www.xilinx.com/products/design_resources/dsp_central/grouping/index.htm


It depends.  If the processing requirement can be met with the use of a
DSP uC (like TI's family of DSP micros), then those microprocessor based
DSP engines are lower power, and lower cost.

If the processing can not be done by a microprocessor (they are too
slow), then using the massively parallel capabilities of the FPGA is
often the ONLY solution.

As well, being massively parallel, and fast, sometimes the FPGA can
process many different streams of lower speed data, and replace multiple
DSP microprocessors, also resulting in a better cost tradeoff.  Often,
the FPGA will save a lot of power in replacing hundreds of
microprocessor DSP chips.

Austin

Re: FPGA's as DSP's

Quoted text here. Click to load it
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^
My experience is that for a given data rate, the FPGA solution will use
about 20% of the power of a microprocessor solution.  That is mainly
because all of the control and unused data path overhead of the
microprocessor is stripped out for the unrolled pipeline used in an
FPGA. That assumes the FPGA fabric is being used efficiently, which
means closer to the top end of the clock envelope so that the smallest
FPGA that can practically handle the task is used. That keeps the static
dissipation from eating your power savings.

My general guideline to customers is that if it can be done with a
single microprocessor, do it there because the parts are cheaper, the
design tools are more mature, and the talent required to program them is
far more plentiful and cheaper.  When your process starts to exceed the
capacity of a single microprocessor, the FPGA starts to become more
attractive.

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
Quoted text here. Click to load it

What about googling ?

http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=%22fpga+vs+dsp%22&meta =

I quess a important difference between FPGA and DSP is programming.
DSP is more for the "procedural" Software Engineer.
FPGA is more for the "parallel" Hardware/Logic design engineer.

And yes, you may get much more MACs(Multiplyaccumulate/second)/dollar
in a FPGA, but at higher development effort. You dont't write a
procedural signal processing routine then, you design a parallel
running logic circuit and also need to care about timing. Although
utilizing a modern DSP may also get difficult and you have to care
much about pipelining.

And with a DSP you get lot's of IP already on chip like DMA
Controller, SDRAM interface etc.
With a FPGA you need to do much more than reading the DMA doc and
setting up it's registers to have a SDRAM/DMA interface making use of
the FPGA's power, although there may be also some IP.

I guess dedicated DSP chips will specialize to niches where they are
surrounded by application specific mixed signal (like A/D) and
specialized circuits (like FLASH) to give a low cost system on chip
solution.
FPGA's with DSP capabilities will take over the high performance more
general purpose DSP maket like for example video processing when the
extra effort in development pays off or IP and development tools
enables it.

All this for the lower Quantities where it is not covered by ASICS or
Custom IC's.

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
Quoted text here. Click to load it

My MS thesis was based on FPGA's which give a very high throughput for
compute intensive applications.  I designed double precision floating
point division and square root units which gave me throughtputs > 100
MFLOPS after pipelining extensively. The sequential version would run
with an approx. throughput of 1 MFLOP.

It really depends on what your application is.

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
Quoted text here. Click to load it
had to design
fixed point IIR and FIR filters in hardware in a DSP arch class.  It
was able to
run at over 50 MHz.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
With the performance per dollar gains, there must be a way to use some
of this
parallelism in a higher level way that would be useful in DSP
applications.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
How about the ones at opencores.org, I have only used one of their
cores, but it did its job.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
I guess it really boils down to development tools and IP
availability.
There is just all this parallelism availible in an FPGA.  It would be
interesting to be able to use it.
I guess its just easier to buy a blackfin and use some of the free
libraries.
Quoted text here. Click to load it
There are quite a few niche markets where I think the dollar gains may
be there like
 in the realm of professional audio and video processing, where there
the item sells
for large $$ but quantity is less than 2k.  I'd have to do some number
crunching to
see just how much.

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
 Engineer.
Quoted text here. Click to load it

You may start a new Company and get into the Reconfigurable
Computing / Reconfigurable Processor Array Market.
Right now it misses broader acceptance, maybe also because the radical
new "paradigm".
Programming under this new "paradigm" is so different from how the
average engineer has been taught (all his life) to solve technical
problems. And it's not the "hierarchical/centralized" way of
procedural thinking inherent to most of us.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Yes, but as long the IP is not device specific (optimized) enough,
it's feasibility may be questionable.

Quoted text here. Click to load it

Guess the easy way still is what DSP's about (today).

And if you think about a software tool that would assist/automate the
job of mapping some signal processing routine to a FPGA you'll
encounter some difficulties, likely to get less significant with time
and available computing power / software.

runtime

A already complicated C-Compiler for a DSP will be i guess at least
100 times faster than compiling some DSP code into a netlist, feeding
this into vendor specific FPGA P&R tool and then checking/examining
timing results and eventual adaptive iterating.
Debugging/simulating showing similar difficulties as you'd have to do
it with a general purpose logic simulators possibly using more
computing power than a specific DSP simulator.

algorithms / computing power

High level DSP programming with FPGA targets is still missing widely
accepted suitable languages, software algorithms and computing power
and - most important - enough people willing to aim their work at
this.

And some minor Problem is that you are bound to the vendor's
proprietary P&R tools and you'd need to embed them in that tool.

For simpler DSP tasks and the "hardcore engineer" DSP with FPGA is
already a everyday business.

Re: FPGA's as DSP's
Search under "systolic array".

Marco
________________________
Marc Reinig
UCO/Lick Observatory
Laboratory for Adaptive Optics

Quoted text here. Click to load it



Site Timeline