What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ? - Page 2

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Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?

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<snip>

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We'll just have to disagree on that one and live with it - I'm perfectly
able to follow most threads using Outlook Express if it's something current
and active (or groups.google if it's something I've found via a search).
The posts (for me) that make things awkward are the ones that are
bottom-posted (inline is fine for the reasons you state) because one does
have to scroll down to see the reply after just reading the original.

I've read most of the links that someone else gave about top-posting, etc.
but it just doesn't work for me.  I cannot recall ever reading a top post
and saying to myself, "I don't understand what's going on - I'll need to
scroll down to look at the original context to understand that".  I just
scan thru, either looking for a particular point that I'm searching for,
seeing if anyone's adding anything new to an ongoing conversation, making a
mental note of replies that are not immediately important to me - yet I
forsee as possibly useful in the future, etc.  If I see a top-posted
response in isolation, there's either enough info in the response (but
devoid of context) for me to know if I should scroll down to see what caused
that response to be made or to know that it's not worth scrolling down to
get the original context.

I don't generally get confused if posts are not are not in a chronological
order (and programmers that I've worked with would say that I'm easily
confused :-/ ).

IIRC, Chomsky points out that when one listens to a sentence, the brain is
basically plugging each word into a tree which as each minor tree is
populated can be decoded.   Remember that word order may be reversed for
some languages - "Le Lotus Bleu" for example seems so strange until you
start to speak a language like this - then it is just normal.  So, as far as
I can see, the brain is constructed to make sense out of things that might
not appear to be 'reasonably' ordered - and mine one, at least, has no
problem doing the same thing with top-posted paragraphs going into the tree
nodes.

Have you seen the film Memento (http://imdb.com/title/tt0209144 /).  I wonder
what your opinion is of that film.


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Most people would understand that something's been quoted - and I don't
think anyone reasonable is going to get upset if their name is missed out
when someone else quotes in a reply.  I'm sorry if Outlook Express doesn't
follow the RFC you'd like it to - I like OE.

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Then go to groups.google if the incomplete content on the new server is so
important that you must know what the full discussion was.

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Why so outraged? I'm only expressing a point of view.
I have no dislike of Indians or Asians at all (I too have always found them
good-natured) - that may sound patronising, but it is not intended to be so.

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Not sure what you mean by 'inaction'.  According to Michael Moore's
Fahrenheit 911, it appears that your current government is in office now
because it cheated.

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I don't think the wage for a software engineer (permanent, not contract) is
paticularly high - I think it's taking the biscuit when a VB programmer can
get more than a C++ programmer.  This happens here in the UK - the City of
London banks will pay a lot for VB programmers - and you never know, if they
employed C++ programmers they might end up with better software.

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Agreed, I don't use companies the offshore their telephone support (e.g.
some banks in the UK are closing down access to branch managers and putting
you thru to offshore call centres instead).

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Typo.


I see - I suppose that was not obvious to me, since I don't use google to
post (only to search).

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<snip>



Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?
On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 19:52:58 -0000, "Joe Butler"

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Thanks for the bottom posting, here....  I actually read the comments.

The point isn't (and shouldn't be) so much as to what you can handle
well, when reading.  If you are using Outlook (I won't touch it), and
it works well for you... then fine.  Frankly, the problem for me isn't
so much that I can or cannot use a page-up and page-dn key (I can),
but more that I have to often dig around through the trailer to try
and see what part of it the comments applied to.  By putting responses
into context, attached nicely to the parts of writing to which they
apply, it's less work on most readers.  And for those with perhaps a
few thousand messages a day to scan in short order, it helps.

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Understood.  You don't mind.  But that seems a very self-centered
position to take.  You might consider how others feel about it.

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This changes nothing about what experience reading lots of messages a
day has taught me -- and many others, as well.  The fact is, that it
is usually easier (not always, but most often) to handle newsgroup
posts that are interspersed, as opposed to top posted.

Now, this is NOT so true for direct 1-on-1 email.  It's perfectly fine
when I email employees or friends and we've been having a personal
conversation and we just write our responses above, leaving the bottom
for details should we need it.  In these cases, it's a given that we
are each following a conversation.  In the case of newsgroups,
however, there may be a 'keyword' that we 'click on' and then suddenly
wonder if we have something useful to say about it.  But without some
sense of context present within immediate view nearby, we have to page
around or look back through older mail to see what may be the fuller
context and that takes time.  But with comments immediately following
the points they refer to, it's much easier to see within short order.

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I have.

Are you suggesting that this is a good way to write and communicate
with others?

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I hate OE.  Used it for years because it "came with Windows."  But I
won't even look back, now.  It'll be some years before I even consider
the idea, again.

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For me, using Agent, I keep a running context in a data base that
lasts 60 days.  Usually, that's more than enough time, so I rarely
need to go to google.

But the point really is that it is important to know WHAT is being
responded to, in a poster's response.  If that is completely missing,
then that is REALLY BAD.  If it is all dumped to the end of the post,
then it's not so bad, but it still may make figuring out what the
writer was specifically talking to, difficult to fathom at times.
Even 20 seconds delay having to ferret this out is too much, usually.
It's not too much, if I decide to write a response, of course.  But I
don't respond to most messages -- in fact, a very, very few of them.
So the seconds really add up for all those other messages.

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And thanks for the consideration in your post, Joe.  Appreciated.

Jon

Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?
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... snip ...
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Nor I, but we all see the silly quotefree newbie messages with the
subject changed every two minutes.  The neighborhood is going to
pot.

--
"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
 the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.  Click on
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?



CBFalconer wrote:

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...posted in reply to something that was posted a year ago.

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I think we need a new phrase; The neighborhood is going to googlegroups.

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...until they break their software in some new way.


Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?
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If you're so confident that you need no context, then why do you
duplicate other messages within your own?

[OT] rant about hidden contributions in posting was Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?

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And what does this post have to do with "What does this instruction mean: ANDDC
#239 ?"

The contribution by the poster was buried somewhere in the middle of the text.

Bottom post or top post but put the message where it can be found before the
context of the thread is lost.

w..

CBFalconer wrote:

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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
And what does this post have to do with <b>"What does this instruction
mean: ANDDC #239 ?"</b><b></b>
<p>The contribution by the poster was buried somewhere in the middle of
the text.
<p>Bottom post or top post but put the message where it can be found before
the context of the thread is lost.
<p>w..<b></b>
<p>CBFalconer wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>*** clueless top-posting fixed ***
<br>Joe Butler wrote:
<p>(and cluelessly stripped all attributions)
<br>>>>
<br>>>> sorry sir the instruction was indeed ANDCC. I shall be careful
<br>>>> the next time.Thanks a lot for the help!!!!!!!!!!God bless u
<br>>>
<br>>> BTW. Before I brought up the point that it must have been a
<br>>> mistake, I ran a Google search on both ANDCC and ANDDC -
<br>>> something that you could have easily done yourself. I got a
<br>>> number of HC12 hits on ANDCC, but **not one** for ANDDC after
<br>>> a hundred or so other matches for it - usually another typo
<br>>> for "and dc."&nbsp; Go figger!
<br>>
<br>> Clueless four-to-a-cubicle Indian programmer...?
<br>>
<br>> I've seen stuff like this before with an offshore company in
<br>> India - totally clueless.&nbsp; It always amazes me that people
<br>> bother to answer questions for the people that could be taking
<br>> their jobs next year.
<p>With all the silly clueless mistakes you made in your reply, you
<br>have little cause to criticize.&nbsp; If someone can compete at a
<br>distance, that is his prerogative.&nbsp; You could do and could have
<br>done much more by insisting that the tax laws do not reward the
<br>wealthy and encourage out-sourcing.&nbsp; There is an old saying that
<br>people get the government they deserve.
<p>--
<br>"If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
<br>&nbsp;the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article.&nbsp; Click
on
<br>&nbsp;"show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
<br>&nbsp;"Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith
Thompson</blockquote>

</html>

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Re: [OT] rant about hidden contributions in posting



Walter Banks wrote:

[snip]

Folks might take your suggestions about how to post more
seriously if you didn't post in HTML.

Here are some references if you are interested in
improving the quality of your posts:

Netiquette: "When thou enter a city, abide by its customs."  
http://www.montebello.k12.ca.us/Resources/Roadmap/map07.html

Usenet 101: How to properly format a Usenet post
http://www.softdevlabs.com/Usenet101.html

How do I quote correctly in usenet?
http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html

Bottom vs. top posting and quotation style on Usenet
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/brox.html

Zen and the art of the internet (usenet section)
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/docproject/zen/zen-1.0_6.html

Why you shouldn't ask for E-mail responses on Usenet
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/mail-responses.html

The seven don'ts of Usenet
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/usenet/dont.html

Why bottom-posting is better than top-posting
http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html

+What do you mean "my reply is upside-down"?
http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk /

The advantages of usenet's quoting conventions
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/g.mccaughan/g/remarks/uquote.html

Rules for posting to Usenet
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/posting-rules/part1 /

Why should I place my response below the quoted text?
http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Top-posting_or_bottom-posting

How To Followup A Post On Netnews Properly
http://www.star-one.org.uk/computer/format.htm

Quoting Style in Newsgroup Postings
http://www.xs4all.nl/%7ewijnands/nnq/nquote.html

Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes with this automated fix!
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix /

How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

For the Engineer/Programmer: News related RFCs and Drafts
http://www.tin.org/docs.html



Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?

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break
minutes.
that one.
probably
application
posting
future. ANDCC
myself and
either...
it? It's
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just won't
simply
be
than
should be
I ran a
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easily
for
typo for

Am I missing something between the lines? Isn't this guy agreeing with
you that the instruction is ANDCC and apologizing about the typo, why
do you think he is pissed off?


Re: What does this instruction mean: ANDDC #239 ?

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I overreacted and took his "over-gratefulness" (I know this is not a real
word) as being as a sarcastic put-down. However, now I think otherwise and
want to express this point. It's probably a difference in cultures. I'm used
to curt replies such as "Oops! my bad" or "Thanks..." or the like.

In addition, I don't desire that people not post any of their problems on
the usenet. I don't want to turn students away either, except those lazies
that want others to do their homework for them. I used to do tutoring,
either in person or online,  and would sometimes receive requests for me to
do such things as entire EE senior projects from start to finish w/o any
input on the part of the "students" (sometimes with promises to pay me big
bucks), etc.



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