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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)


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Atmel does treat big people very well, which is presumably how they get
away with this. The reason I said I know _I_ could get samples, if they
exist, is because other SBUs in my company use tens of thousands of
AVRs of various breeds, and Atmel is trying very hard to get a foot in
the door of my SBU. I want to design them in because they're much
easier to work with than the COP and NEC 78K series (which is what we
have in the products right now) and also considerably cheaper
(dollar-per-feature) at our "family" price. I could promise about half
a million pieces a year on some of our projects, too - which is enough
to get any rep out of his chair :)


Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

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I never doubted any of that.  I think the consistent picture is that
Atmel has a clear understanding of its crafted business model and
adheres well to it.  That business model just isn't one that is
largely congruent with mine.

Jon

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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I think this is a misunderstanding´.
The sample system was not really working before the end of 2004
and large customers got their samples because the direct sales force fought
to get them.
I think the sample ordering process is now functional
so if a sample order is entered and parts are in stock, then they get
shipped quite soon
reagdless if dfortune 50 or not.
There can be of course be times when the sample stock is dried up for a
specific part.

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--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)


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I tried twice during 2005 to get samples, once of the mega16L and once
of the mega8L. Since there were thousands available in distribution, I
greatly doubt that there were no samples.

TI, Philips, Freescale, Analog Devices, Microchip, Maxim - all very
generous with samples. TI and Freescale send them out from Digi-Key
with no Digi-Key logo on the packing slip.


Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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Don't understand why.
I check the complete sample log right now for my region 2005.
There are three main reasons for samples not beeing shipped.
1) Part not in production, I.E not available to sample department. This
should not affect mega16L/8L
2) Too many samples ordered, that puts stuff on hold. Max 5 AVRs per type is
the general rule.
    An inexperienced internal sales engineer could order more, but
    then the sample order would not get shipped and needs manual followup to
get the order shipped.
    If you avoid trying to get more than 5, you avoid this potential
problem.
    It would be OK to order 5 x ATmega8L and 5 x ATmega16L.
3) Not shipped for unexplained reason. This is about 1% of all sample orders
visible to me for the whole of 2005,
    so very very few compared to the total number of sample orders.
    It is not unlikely that they got the samples outside the system.

Maybe someone tried to get samples outside the system?

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As you can see from above, basically everyone requesting things (that was
shippable) got what they wanted.
Really can't see why you had a problem.

Noone has ever told me to ship only to "large" customers.
I think every one ordering samples get equal treatment by the "system",
but large customers has the benefit of direct access to the Atmel sales
force
or get indirect attention through the distributors.

Atmel is supplying loads of chips to school and universities as well.
In an exhibition in Sweden late 2004, all the universities were showing
their projects, and ALL but one ran their projects on the AVR.
I had to go and talk to the lonely wolf.. They had just completed
the development of a course based on the PIC and were not interested at
start
but after some email conversation they decided to go for an AVR (AT90CAN128)
in a large project (involving development of a racing car).

I passed by the IAR stand in another exhibition, and told them the story
"Everyone but one is using the AVR, and now the one has changed as well :-)"

It turned out that the guy responsible for course development
at that specific university was standing next to me when I told the
story to the IAR guys.
He told me that they have noted that while they were teaching
PIC at the university, the students were selecting the AVR
for their home projects :-)
To make a long story short, now they have four courses on the AVR.

To support the thousands of sample requests a semiconductor company gets a
*process* is needed.
This process was not in place inside Atmel 15 months ago, but I think the
track record for 2005 is OK.
When I look at shipments date (have no history here) I see that all orders
entered early this week
(or before) has certainly been shipped unless it has run into problems
described above.

If I were you I would ask to have the Sample "Order Id" for any sample order
not shipped within 1 or maybe 2 weeks.
This is useful when you request a follow up.

--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)


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Me neither. But all I see is the customer front-end.

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I ordered 3pcs on each occasion.

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So, who do you ask? These requests were submitted using the online
sample ordering process. No confirmation email, no number.


Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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The samples orders are normally entered by an internal sales assistant.
Which web site do you use?


--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

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Amazingly, Ulf, I used www.atmel.com to order samples from Atmel (?!)

The specific URL:

http://www.atmel.com/forms/Samples.asp?family_id60%7


Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:21:14 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"

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Could be.  If memory serves, this debacle lasted most of the year of
2002 (late Feb to mid Dec.)  And I was interacting with local FAE,
local dist., as well as Jaques (I think) in France.  The local FAE (I
continue to receive letters from him on the AT91 family) was totally
focused on asking me only about our business prospects, while also
apologizing for what he knew were long delays so far.  It wasn't that
there weren't parts, Ulf.  He told me they had some.  It was about who
got them.  Things were very late and I was worrying and he has asking
those business questions he was supposed to ask because that's what
his management wanted to know from me.  Like Lewin, my experience with
everyone else has been rather different and ... more accommodating
without the undue stress.

Things may be much better, but there are so many good choices today.
There isn't such a need to offer yet another hand in friendship after
the last one was bitten off at the elbow, particularly when others are
purring along nicely.  I can afford the long memory.

Jon

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
I am not aware of any official policy within Atmel that says that samples
should be reserved for large customers.
I think that delays or non-deliveries are caused by the sample order system
which requires manual intervention.

There are two sample systems, one open to the public (on the Atmel web site)
and one for internal use.
The web sample order generates an email to a sales engineer
which has to enter the sample order into the internal sample system.

I suspect that there is a risk that large or known customers could get more
attention,
since the system depends on the sales engineer receiving the sample order.
We are all overworked and prioritize, right?

If I decided to open up my own shop, I would ask a *distributor* for samples
and request to have the sample order number back as a feedback.
This is a guarantee that the sample order has been entered.
I believe that if this is done this way, the system should ensure
that the samples are delivered quickly.

--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson




Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 12:38:19 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"

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I don't think it was his own motivations operating, Ulf.  He was
apologetic about having to ask the questions he did.  So I'm pretty
sure that he was told to ask.  The fact that you aren't aware now of
such a policy doesn't mean there wasn't one then, or that it couldn't
have been a regional management decision and not a global one.  I
frankly don't know.  However, there is one thing I am certain of and
that is my experience and my copies of the email exchanges between the
parties.

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That would probably _not_ explain the FAE's questions or his
explanations or his apologies.

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This was 2002, keep in mind.

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I didn't use that approach.  If you read back through google, you will
see that I contacted my local distributor, All American, and worked
through them.  I already had spoken with the Atmel FAE on other
occasions about this particular part and some of the technical merits,
and also to begin a dialogue with Jaques about the part (which
proceeded slowly, since at first the FAE felt he needed to be in the
middle of the dialog and the 'around the world' issue added some
delays.)  I don't think the FAE was taken by surprise by All
American's request on my behalf.

It never even crossed my mind to consider using a web page for this,
at that time.

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Well, sure.


 :)

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This may be true, for now, Ulf.  But believe me, I had confirmation
that All American had done their job.  The FAE and I began speaking on
this subject a few months after the order through All American and
when I was starting to wonder.  I don't believe there is any
reasonable question at all that the sample order had been properly
processed into Atmel.  He certainly didn't mention any such issue and
there was no discussion between me and the Atmel FAE that would
suggest anything like that -- quite to the contrary, in fact.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the problem, not to mention the fact that
our discussions were honestly about other reasons why.  The FAE was
pretty clear.

...

I should add something.  If you do a google search using my last name
as the author, comp.arch.embedded as the newsgroup, and Atmel and the
AT90S2313 as keywords, and sort by date, you will find that my
earliest comments fitting that search (in 1999) were very positive.  I
still feel that way about the technical merits on many of the parts.

I appreciate your attempts to find an explanation for my experiences.
But I lived them, Ulf.  You didn't.  I will always have more
information about what happened to me than you will and that puts me
at an advantage over someone who is only able to speak generally from
quite a distance, literally and metaphorically.

So this isn't really fair to you and you should not have to try and
explain what did happen.  The most you should consider doing is to
simply appreciate it, but not try and change my mind about it.  You'll
lose that last battle, if that is where you are going, unless you are
truly willing to do a thorough investigation on the basis of emails I
have here and provide a convincing and detailed explanation of that
situation as it played out then.  Personally, I'm willing to just
leave it in the past and not worry about it.  There are many other
excellent options and I don't want or need to worry about the past.

Jon

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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I have also been told to ask, but only for early samples
and not for parts in general sampling.
Early samples are always a special case and should not be confused
with general sampling policy.


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...
are

I think that my humble goal is to find out what went wrong
to be able to suggest the best approach to solve the problem or find a
workaround

In this case, only Atmel can solve the problem, but the workaround
is to order through a distributor and get the order number.
If the part is in general sampling, (and there is stock) then
the parts should arrive soon.
If the samples are ordered over the web, then it may or may not appear


--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 01:48:15 +0100, "Ulf Samuelsson"

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I can't say.  I ordered them when I read they were ready to be sampled
and I can't recall ever hearing the Atmel FAE mention that what I was
asking for was special in any way.  It probably would have made his
job easier with me, had he mentioned that I was asking for special
attention.  And I certainly didn't go into this expecting any special,
advance treatment.  It was a simple request for two samples of a part
that Atmel had openly advertised as sampling and where that was
confirmed by All American through their own conversations with Atmel,
relayed back to me.  But I cannot say what All American represented to
Atmel.  That would be outside my view.

Jon

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
On 20/01/2006 the venerable Ulf Samuelsson etched in runes:

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Well I've just put the system to the test and applied online for two samples of
ATmega2561. I am
developing test code for a C compiler and need to run the code on an STK500/501
for testing.

Let's hope you are the sales enginer who receives my request.

Thanks in advance.

--
John B

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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And if it works then you should get it in February
since that is when the general sampling begins of that part.

--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
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Don't be too hard on Atmel. It is the same for all silicon companies.
They are in business to sell as many chips as possible. Therefore they
will concentrate of the big companies and their distributors onthe
smaller ones.

It costs as much to send a sample to a big company that will order
thousands as a small company that will only take the samples. The
problem is not so much cost as time (which costs money).

TO send a sample to a company that is not going to buy any more parts
probably costs 100 USD. Wages, shipping and TIME.

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

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Atmel doesn't need to apologize to anyone and no one needs to cut them
slack, either.  They simply are who they are.

Some companies will choose to specialize more towards one end of the
market, some towards the other end, and some may try and straddle
somewhere in between.  But it's wise to select partners who are
largely congruent with your own business model and to learn to avoid
more, those where their interests aren't nearly as well aligned.

Nothing magic; no excuses needed; no apologies.  Just select partners
where they value the mutual relationship and where there is a lot of
mutual ground in business direction (which helps you better estimate
the future of the relationship.)

Jon

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)
Hello Chris,

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And that can be a huge mistake. It is the reason why my design-in rate
for parts from several large European semi mfgs has plummeted from
around 30% to nearly zilch. We are talking about stuff that went into
mass production and still is, some of it for over 10 years now. And then
they lament about sagging sales.

Suits me, I just would never buy stock in a company that thinks they can
survive by catering to only the big ones.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

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your case may be 1:10 000
recently I hear from local big name distributor complain that Harris
did last year $100K sample shipments to Bulgaria only for 6 month and
they decided to cut off this service
so somebody well abused their sample service (I guess this number
should be accumulated by shipping $1.00 logic chips by FedEx)
so you can imagine what happens in world wide measures and Atmel is one
of most popular vendors
If I was in Atmel shoes I would also left the local disti who know the
market better to decide who really need sample and who just is
harwesting free chips. If you really do design which later on go in
mass production they would recognize you as keypartner.

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sad truth to all small co. is that they do just fine this way

Best regards
Tsvetan
---
PCB prototypes for $26 at http://run.to/pcb (http://www.olimex.com/pcb )
PCB any volume assembly (http://www.olimex.com/pcb/protoa.html )
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Re: Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

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Semiconductor distributors do not generally ask me about tools. They
normally just want to know how many parts per year I expect to buy.

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I have never experienced this. Distributors are quite happy to send me
samples regardless. Even when just getting initial price and
availability, they are keen to send samples too. And this is for just
one or two hundred parts per year expected volume. For students etc. I
imagine the situation is different; you would not really expect a
semiconductor distributor to deal with private individuals at all.

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Isn't it unusual to buy the tools from the semiconductor distributor?
I am sure it does happen, but I would have thought that most people
buy from specialists in development systems.

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Hmmm, are you by any chance a commercial tools supplier? :)

--

John Devereux

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