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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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Crap, like everything else you post.

regards
pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB


Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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web-based
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u mean "arm" is a crap?
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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No, I mean your postings are.

pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas" HMHB


Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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 Not quite. The real impact of devices like the Philips LPC21xx will
be on the 16 bit space.

 Key parameters are pin count, and price.

 Smallest ARMs are 48 pins, and in the region of $5 - both
well above the average pincount/selling price of 8 bit devices.

 The same process savings that move ARM down, also move
smaller devices down.
 Right now, 80C51 are moving comfortably sub $1 in FLASH @ 8 pins,
and also adding high performance Analog. (but not for the $1 :)

 There is a trend for more capable cores to replace simpler cores
as process improves, but the 80C51 is not exposed much to ARM at
the top end, and is feeding on the simpler cores ( PIC et al)
at the sub $1 point. Thus 80C51 is growing.

 Learn 80C51 _and_ ARM  :)

-jg

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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Model T cars are totally obsolete.  Flintlock rifles are totally obsolete.
Steam locomotives are totally obsolete.  Millions (if not billions) of 8051
processors are sold every year.  You might want to look up the meaning of
the word 'obsolete'.

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Interesting idea - any facts or data to back up it up?

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remote

I sure wish there were small controller core modules built on the ARM that
compared favorably in price to other architectures.  Until there are, ARM is
likely not going to make significant penetration into the industrial control
marketplace.  It's great for cell phones, though.

Kelly



Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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My' sounds like he/she is in Marketing.  Those folks don't
need-no-steeenkin' facts ;-)

On the other hand, this could be an edict from the "big guy" above,
dictating "thou shalt" use ARMs everywhere.

--
Dan Henry

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
Arm will go the way of the DoDo bird in the next couple of years.
Actually, with the new smaller die sizes for the regular Intel type
processors, from Intel and Via,
 ARM will go the way of the DoDo bird.  The world will eventually switch to
the Intel chips running Linux and Windows.
Via's Mini-ITX and Nano-ITX and the new robotics board from Intel show the
what is happening now.
Everyone wants WiFi, and Bluetooth, a much bigger crop of programmers can
swtich to these chips without too much trouble, plus the
programming tools are a lot cheaper too.
In a few years you'll need wireless internet capability for even a simple
smart power switch at home. The security to keep hackers from screwing it
all up
will be what drives it all.




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remote



Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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I don't think that's true either. Intel certainly doesn't think so as they also
use the ARM architecture in their XP network processors.

Linux and Windows? Wrong newsgroup. :-)

ARM is also being used by Motorola in their new Dragonball series of
controllers for use in PDAs, like the lastest Palms. And I believe ARM is also
the CPU of choice for PDAs using Windows CE like the iPaq.

The embedded market is huge, ranging from 4-bit controller to 64-bit CPUs.


Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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Last time I asked in a seminar I was presenting I got a straw pole in
order of numbers 16 bit, 8 bit 32 bit 64 bit  128 bit and 4 bit....

So the embedded range is 4->128 bit.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 06:47:33 -0500, "Earl Bollinger"
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Tell that to all the mobile phone and PDA manufactuers who are still
pouring squillions into their existing ARM platforms. Not surprising,
given that they shipped *hundres of millions* of ARM based processors
last year, and have something like 80% of the market or more.
You can get Linux for the ARM too...
ARM is an IP core that can be applied to all these new wizz-bang ultra
small die sizes to achieve lower power and faster speeds, that is why
it is so successful. It is also why virtually every major processor
maker is licensed up to use ARM cores. The only place it's going in
the next couple of years is up the growth curve.

Regards
Dave :)
---------------------------
(remove the "_" from my email address to reply)

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
I cannot go with this. As someone wrote "the embedded market is very deep"
...
The only thing you can forecast for the future is that the future is not as
projected now.
Maybe in ten years Win will run on a desktop ARM in every household? Imagine
the power savings...
- Henry

Earl Bollinger schrieb in Nachricht ...
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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Your in the wrong NG this one is for engineers. Marketing and story
telling have their own NG's


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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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remote

Although ARM will be increasingly used in many electronic appliances, there
are plenty of applications where much lower-cost processors will suffice,
ussually much cheaper ones than 8051 et al.



Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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On the other hand, the price of ARM chips will continue to drop as the
technology improves.  The Philips ARM chip is around $5 in quantity
now.  In three years expect it to break $2 with less memory if the
market continues to develop.  Compare to the price of the Cygnal 8051
chips!

Of course you don't need an ARM to control your microwave.  But many 8
bit apps will be done with 32 bit chips in the near future because they
can offer more features for the same system price.  

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

snipped-for-privacy@XYarius.com
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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What makes you think that 4 and 8 bit processors aren't going to continue to
drop in price as well?

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I suppose if dice shrink (and wafer yields rise) to the point where the
packaging cost completely dominates the silicon/IP cost, then it won't
really matter whether there's a 4/8/16/32 bit processors.  When you ask for
a price quote, all they have to ask you is "how many pins?"

--
Grant Edwards                   grante             Yow!  Where's th' DAFFY
                                  at               DUCK EXHIBIT??
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...


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Exactly as you say below, at some point the price of the package and
testing dominates.  There will always be a price advantage with a
smaller chip, but if you can add features, even ones unrelated to the
product, there will be reason to spend an extra $0.10 cent for the
bigger chip.  An example of that is the games that come on cell phones.
They have nothing to do with using a cell phone, but they make the
product sell better and so they are worth a few cents.  

Maybe your microwave would work better if it sang to you as it cooked?  


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--

Rick "rickman" Collins

snipped-for-privacy@XYarius.com
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 16:47:30 -0400, in comp.arch.embedded, rickman

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cannot be justified.
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chips will always be
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$.10 at a million pieces is $100,000.  When it comes to large qty, and low
resale prices, a dime is a lot of money!

If your designing a greeting card that plays a recorded voice, or a little song
when you open the cover, $.10 is a fortune in parts.

If your building a little piece of swag jewelry that blinks a little pattern of
LEDs around a company logo, that your going to be giving away at a trade show,
$.01 is a lot of money!

Things like keyboard controllers for alarm system pads, power monitoring in
power supplies, LCD controllers, remote controls, computer mice, a remote
temperature sensor that sends nothing but a temperature back to a main
processor, don't need 32 bit processors, and to spend even a penny more on one
would be a foolish business decision.

I was once contracting for a company that was working with one of the major
remote control manufactures that OEM most of the remotes for cable boxes.  They
wouldn't blink until you talked about qty's of 1 million and to get their
attention, and a decent amount of support you need to be talking in 10's of
millions. At $.10 that's $1,000,000.  At that kind of savings you can afford to
pay someone a years salary to learn to code in assembly language.  They used a
6805 variant, with *very* tight assembly language coding using very heavy
compression to fit as many codesets as possible into the smallest amount of
memory.  A penny in production cost could save them $100k on a run of 10mil.

But again to make you're point, sometimes 32 bit is desirable, the company I was
contracting with was talking about putting an ARM processor in the remote. They
wanted two way communications with a menu built into the remote, the end goal
was to allow advertisements to be sent to the remote's display. It was an evil
plan...but it paid my mortgage! As a side note, I had the whole thing working in
the 6805 8-bit processor, it wasn't until they wanted to add a scripting
language and advertising "applets" (and the memory addressing needed for these)
that they did a redesign to an ARM.  This remote was to be heavily subsidized by
advertising money, so cost wasn't as important as it is for the $9 One For All
remote you can buy at a drugstore.  BTW: They finally did go into production but
I have no idea what processor they ended up with: http://www.guideremote.com
they also made uglier, the proto-type I worked on didn't look nearly as goofy.
;-)

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Really? So who's writing the "C" compilers that must generate the assembly
language code? (And understand it well enough to write decent optimizers?) There
will be assembly language programmers in 15 years, for the simple fact a I know
a bunch of under 30 year old assembly language programmers now. It seems
unlikely they're all going to die in 15 years. ;-)

There's always going to be a need for something to do nothing but count the
number of things that has passed it on an assembly line and send that
information back to some other CPU.  Using Linux, with the ability to play
DOOM-7 is always going to be overkill for this...

-Zonn

--------------------------------------------------------
Zonn Moore
Zektor, LLC
www.zektor.com

Remove the ".AOL" from the email address to reply.

Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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Erm, no, I respectfully think that you have that one bass-ackwards. The
reason there are games on cellphones is because digital phones needed a
fairly frisky CPU and plenty of memory for DSPizing and realtime data
processing, crypto, etc and someone realized that this hardware could be
used for an occasional frivol, being totally unused while there is no call
in progress.

With the modern genre of phones, this has come one step further because
marketing has looked at the possibility of selling downloadable software
with a view to someday making cellular service providers turn a profit. But
the feature was initially a side-effect. I even recall interviews with Nokia
engineers who said as much.

Having worked in electronic toys and consumer appliances for most of my
recent career, I can say categorically that $0.10 per chip is often money
wasted, and practically always money marketing will NOT permit you to spend,
unless it is for a feature that is specifically required to implement some
bullet point off the product roadmap. For low-volume projects, other factors
dominate, of course.



Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...
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I don't think you understand my point.  I am not talking about some
frill that an engineer wants to add.  I am saying that marketing always
wants to put more into a product.  If the incremental cost is very low,
then those "frills" will start to be added.  

Of course no one will use a 32 bit processor in a greeting card as you
see them today.  But when the cost is low enough to allow, you will see
32 bit processors in even disposable things like digital ink
newspapers.  

The issue in the cell phone is that the game takes up code storage
space.  That is an added cost unless you say "there is spare space".
But at some point of cell phone development that game pushed the size of
the flash up to the next notch or required another round of code
reduction to make it all fit.  Nothing is free, but often the cost is
low enough.  

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

snipped-for-privacy@XYarius.com
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Re: trend of "ARM"... will this replace all other micro-controller and ...

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No, I don't think you understand MY point :) The marketroids - let's take
toys for instance - have a range of  trucks, say, nd they want to add one
more product to that range. They come to the design people, who make a huge
list of possible features. The engineers implement a prototype with some
subset - perhaps a large subset - of those features. The marketing people
then say "Great! Now make it for $x, and take out whatever features are
required to achieve that!". This is not theory, it's bitter experience of
how the mass-market consumer electronics industry works (except for very
small companies). You simply cannot persuade marketing people to throw in
extra features after the fact unless they are /literally/ free.

$0.10, by the way, is a massive cost factor in an electronic toy. I have
spent upwards of two weeks trying to find a way to use two $0.0025 resistors
instead of one $0.05 capacitor (in a toy with SRP $12.95), the end effect of
which was to cut out the entire feature that required this capacitor, rather
than spend $0.05. I can project from this that in a $79.95 microwave oven, a
$0.10 BOM increase is still very significant, and days will cheerfully be
spent to shave it out.

--
-- Lewin A.R.W. Edwards (http://www.zws.com /)
Learn how to develop high-end embedded systems on a tight budget!
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