"Stable" time references

Relative to what? How about a clue as to your accuracy and stability requirements? The appropriate device could be anything from a free running oscillator to a GPSDO.

I also don't like the idea of what sounds like a transfer standard. With a synthesizer, you can drive whatever clock your driving directly from your timebase.

One of my early GPSDO contrivances would take about an hour to recover from every time I opened the outside shop door. That was eventually fixed by double insulating the OCXO. I also had plenty of fun trying to keep the 5 and 10 MHz outputs from leaking out of the box, and trashing my WWV reception.

How long? With all due respect, you're being far too vague here. Different technologies offer different short and long term accuracies.

That's always the case. More accuracy and stability always costs more, usually on a non-linear scale. At the high end, a small increase in accuracy and stability can cost outrageous amounts in construction costs. However, the worst cost of accuracy and stability is your time in calibrating the reference OCXO. I generally have to tinker with the OCXO for several days before it settles down. Note the differences between accuracy and stability. Also note that the Allen variance goes out to 10^4 seconds (about 7 days) and that the next order of magnitude in accuracy requires 10 times that or 70 days.

Who's time? There are subtle differences between UTC, astronomical, navigational, space, and political clocks. Einstein's time dilation is involved. Not the table at the top of the page: Looks like about 16 seconds difference between UTC and GPS time.

A mechanical wind up clock would work if you don't bother to specify your accuracy and stability requirements.

I can't tell what you're trying to accomplish, but if all you want is accurate time, and not accurate frequency, then all you need is an accurate clock. The 1pps from most GPS receivers will drive almost any kind of clock with good accuracy (as long as you don't have any missing pulses). If you don't mind the clock wandering around a bit during the day, a WWVH 60 KHz clock might suffice.

On the other foot, if all you want is a stable frequency, you can get close with an OCXO or possibly a TCXO. An OCXO is probably best, especially if you add extra insulation. Start at 10 MHz and divide down to 5, 2.5, and 1 MHz depending on what you need. I have such a system distributing 5 and 10 MHz to all my test equipment that will accept an external reference. On a good day in the ionosphere, I get about 0.01 ppm accuracy against WWV.

Incidentally, I have a pile of about 200 Novatel/CMC Allstar 12 GPS receiver boards if you want to play. They're old (2001), not the best, and don't have a frequency output, but are good enough for 1pps and for building ham-radio APRS trackers. The catch is that you'll have to build an interface board to make it useful:

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Reply to
Jeff Liebermann
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That's a lot of work.

How about putting a normal VCXO in an analogue PLL with an XOR phase detector--it'll servo right at half scale unless you put in an external reference. A little 4-pin connector and a baby daughtercard would let you sell the reference as an add-on.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

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Reply to
Phil Hobbs

Yes. It's commonly done in land mobile radios that require high stability but cannot tolerate the power drain of an oven. Also used for stabilizing oscillators over very wide temperature ranges.

Officially, it's a DTCXO (digital temp compensated crystal osc)[1]. The crystal and oscillator circuitry is characterized over the desired temperature range, and the required frequency compensation is saved in a lookup table. It's usually controlled by a PIC. Here's an example:

0.3 to 1 ppm stability over various temperature ranges (depending on model). Here's another: with varying specs.

The big problem is crystal ageing, which can sometime be as large as the temperature drift. I've forgotten everything I had learned about accelerated crystal aging, but suffice to say that it's closer to magic than science.

[1] More oscillator acronyms:
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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

If you are making a time base (not just a frequency standard), how are you going to handle leap seconds ?

Reply to
upsidedown

NIST offers a variety of broadcast time references.

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There is also one on the WWW. Art

Reply to
Artemus

Easy: he'll choose one of the time standards that ignore leap seconds, e.g GPS time or TAI time

Reply to
Tom Gardner

digital

So what you are approaching is a second optional product they can purchase, your time keeper so to speak. Then you have multiple variations (GPS, CDMA, RF, etc). Your main product should supply power to this addon (you dont want another wall wart or such) and it has to take the pps input. You would be wise to have power limiting on the supply side and need to handle all the ESD and EMI issues with the connector and.. and ...

By the time you get done with all that you might as well just put the TCXO in and be done with it. Cost wise it could quickly be close to the same.

--
Chisolm 
Republic of Texas
Reply to
Joe Chisolm

Bounce an ultrasonic signal off the pile of horse poop and see how long it takes to come back. Shorter times = bigger pile. Then you just need an NIST-traceable horse to calibrate against. And possibly to not care about RoHS.

7 years, wow!

For a good time, call +1 303 494 4774. Use a landline for lower latency.

I hear you can get cell phone modules that allow your device to either make a phone call or send texts over the cell networks. I don't know if these modules can tell you what time the cell network thinks it is. You might need a SIM card to make this work.

Matt Roberds

Reply to
mroberds

Hi, Don:-

Ah, well... if you pick a common standard frequency like 10MHz, and a standard footprint like 5 x 7mm, and a standard voltage like 3.3V you can populate either a $15 TCXO or a $1.00 oscillator on the same PCB.

If you want field options, you could also easily make a 4-pin plug-in module that would contain just the TCXO (or even an OCXO) and switch over the clock source (use the 4th pin to ground the tristate output selection line on the on-board XO). That way the added "cost" per non-TCXO unit is just a 3-cent 4-pin header eg. SWR201-NRTN-S04-SA-WH.

One thing I've done is to have an oscillator input over an SMA or whatever and detect the signal & switch over automatically to the external source if it's present. That takes a few more parts, but allows the simplest possible connector and is harder (never say impossible!) for the user to screw up.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

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"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward" 
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Reply to
Spehro Pefhany

No! I don't want to be in that business! What I want is a means by which *they* can "enhance" what I've made TO FIT THEIR NEEDS. I.e., the guy they hire (in the paragraph above) has no affiliation with me -- I've just provided a means by which "he" can adjust the clocks.

[clocks are a flawed analogy because they imply actual time-of-day is significant. I'm really only interested in ensuring that time *passes* at the actual rate]

No. Instead, I'm looking at just an "input" for this reference (DC coupled wrt ground, transformer coupled, optically coupled, ). I expect *it* to provide whatever power it needs.

TCXO (or *any* "fixed design choice") means accuracy is fixed and can't change after-the-fact as the user's needs change. Annoying (to the user) to realize you have to buy a different version as your needs increase. Or, have *your* device retrofitted to accommodate something this "trivial".

Reply to
Don Y

Exactly! That's the whole point! Let the *user* decide what level of accuracy he wants/needs. And, whether he is interested in short term and/or long term goals. Why should he be "stuck" with a design decision that I've made "for the masses"?

Your "HiFi" lets you decide is you want to buy a crappy cassette deck or a high end DAT or a CD, etc. Why should the manufacturer

*pick* one of these options and lock you into it -- forever? (Ah, because the manufacturer wants to sell you another model next year...)

Exactly! A frequent technique I use is to monitor the AC mains to achieve long term accuracies -- but requiring day(s) to lock to the "average line frequency". If you're running 24/7/365, this isn't an issue -- except in your "initial accuracy".

"Time" in the sense of "time passing" -- not in the sense of "the (current) time is:"

Yes, it would! Provided there was a means of "observing" it!

I've got a drawer full of different GPS devices -- which is where the idea for an "external reference" originated. What I'm looking for is other options that I may not have considered. Esp if they affect the sort of "interface" I would have to implement/support

E.g., using an *external* TCXO would mean I would have to be able to capture a very high frequency signal. Very different approach than talking to a time server over the network or listening to a PPS signal.

Reply to
Don Y

If I had one, I wouldn't be wasting my time on matters as *mundane* as these! :>

Reply to
Don Y

Well, you can't force your customers to "plan ahead"! :>

Reply to
Don Y

Means two different "models" have to be maintained. Or, the user has to ship the product back for an "upgrade"

"Grandma" is probably not going to be comfortable making that sort of change. Or, will be calling for "Support" when she's bent a pin (and doesn't yet know it).

This is the approach I think I am going to settle on. Let the user connect having and :) figure out how to use that information. (i.e., don't *assume* it's 1Hz -- or, perhaps *look* at it and if it *seems* like ~1PPS, then make that assumption to save the user having to *tell* me it is 1.0000Hz and not 29.97Hz, etc.)

Reply to
Don Y

If it doesn't, what are you prepared to do about it?

Reply to
krw

You need a TCXO or OCXO as part of a GPSDO. A GPSDO works by tweaking the oscillator up or down, depending on a phase or frequency measurement performed anywhere between 1 sec and several minute intervals. In effect, it's a very slow phase or frequency locked loop. That means that the noise, jitter, spurs, and junk produced by the oscillator will appear directly on the GPSDO output signal. If you start with a dirty oscillator, you end up with a dirty output, no matter how elaborate your GPSDO design. Try running some test equipment with an external reference signal that has a mess of 60 Hz FM noise on it, and see how far you get. Think of the FM noise as producing "uncertainty" in any measurement.

I don't understand what you mean by "external" TCXO. You can put the TXCO anywhere, but if it's part of the GPSDO loop, it has to operate as part of the system.

Ultimately, most frequency references either talk to a time service, or have a built in atomic reference available. Those references are transferred to your TCXO and OCXO which in turn produces your output. You could probably build something based on the transit of the moons of Jupiter, but I don't think you have the R&D budget.

Drivel: Speaking of a noisy reference, I had an AC power ground loop problem as parts of the building were on different AC power grounds. I could produce a substantial spark when connecting coax grounds that ran between buildings. There was also an RF leak that superimposed a local AM radio station onto the 10 MHz reference signal. Since I was doing the bulk of the complaining, I was soon sentenced to fix the problem (late at night, so I wouldn't disrupt production). The company distributed the 10 MHz reference signal over a fairly large area, through hundreds of feet of variable quality coax, to assorted test equipment, some of with had the external reference shield at case ground. In order to fix this, I added home made isolation xformers and filters at each station. I also built several distribution amplifiers so that some idiot (i.e. me) would not shut down the entire company by accidentally shorting the reference signal to ground. I also made a feeble attempt to properly terminate the cables at 50 ohms, but that was futile due to the large number of T connectors in the system. I almost forgot to mention replacing about 50+ badly soldered BNC connectors with crimp BNC.

--
Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
150 Felker St #D    http://www.LearnByDestroying.com 
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com 
Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558
Reply to
Jeff Liebermann

I compared my ancient HP 5328A with the

010 high stability time base option to a Sulzer Laboratories frequency standard that I rescued from the recycling bin.

The two agreed within something like 30 parts per billion over a week's time.

The 5328A is nice because it has a 10mhz bnc on the back and standby mode that keeps the crystal warm. Plus you have a counter timer.

D> Hi,

Reply to
Jim Stewart

That is what the money is for - to atone for bad planning. Everybody wins! you get money, they get an indulgence.

--
Les Cargill
Reply to
Les Cargill

As someone else mentioned, the stabilized RTC chips from Maxim/Dallas can be pretty good. I've used them for years in moored oceanographic instruments that can spend a year out of touch with the world----including mains power and GPS signals. We often get instruments back whose clocks are within

30 seconds of each other after a year under water. That's a difference of about 1PPM. These moored instruments do have the advantage that the temperature probably doesn't change more than 5 deg C. over the interval and the instruments are within about 5 deg. C. of each other.

Another option might be a receiver for the 60KHZ time broadcasts if the system is going to a place where those can be received. The receivers must be fairly low power and cheap----there's one built in to my $35 Casio wristwatch.

Mark Borgerson

Reply to
Mark Borgerson

In the words of Ford Prefect "Time is an illusion; Lunchtime doubly so" ;-)

Following the actual rate of time would rather depend on how the anomilies in the gravity field affect its apparent passing and the viewpoint you are observing its passing from.

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Paul E Bennett

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