Spare time work on resume

VL is a small R&D house where we all get our hands dirty doing everything from hardware through to software and everything in between - a sort of "Jack of all trades, master of quite a few" if you like.

When looking at resumes we actually *do* look for indications that the applicant has some interest in 'engineering' outside work hours. We've found over the years that people with these traits tend to be much more compatible with our environment and the type of work that we do.

Regards,

That's awesome. I like the jack of all trades thing too. I hadn't thought about the relationship, but it sort of happens naturally looking at one area and gradually peering into adjacent ones.

Now that I think back, I might have seen one odd company like this in the States. It was some place in Rhode Island or abouts that does all kinds of custom embedded projects.

I wonder if any large corporations are as right-brained or if being rigid is one of the trade-offs for all the things corporations give us. I want art and science to merge.

I wonder how to relate. Do any headhunters recruit in their spare time? Do any corporate middle managers manage in their spare time?

When I'm recruiting then first and foremost the work and educational qualifications and experience have to be there - there must be a proven track record to suggest that the candidate is even capable of doing the job I'm offering. The candidate would need to have some very compelling special circumstances to get to interview without this - I've never encountered those circumstances yet.

However, there are often a number of candidates who fit the bill on those terms alone and so more factors have to be considered for selection. Very high amongst those is projects done in spare time because it is usually a strong sign that the candidate has "Engineering DNA" and is applying for the job because they are interested in it and are not just looking for a pay cheque.

I would also be looking for evidence that the candidate is "human" and is someone who could work with my team. I wouldn't discount someone on wierdness alone (this is engineering after all and it does attract the eccentrics) but you have be realistic about the human factors in the team.

It's a tricky issue.

I think that I have the engineering DNA as mentioned by another poster. I like engineering and love tinkering around with ideas. However, every day I am stuck inside staring at a computer monitor. In my spare time I would sooner go out cycling to get a bit of exercise, feel the fresh air rushing through my lungs, smile with the sun as it sparkles (if it's not raining!) in a clear blue sky and smell the heavily scented countryside. For a bit of variety I occasionally drive a few hours to the north Cornish coast and do a bit of surfing.

Why on earth would I want to stay stuck inside staring at computer monitor?

I'm not into heavy spare time work. I agree that after a while it gets too stressful. That's why most of my spare time projects are very small, only lasting a week or so, except if I were to go on vacation and run out of interesting active things to do before the vacation was over. At that point, developing software becomes a viable active thing because sitting around all day for a couple days straight begins to bore me after a while.

Why for me is that using computers is the reason I work with computers. I enjoy it in moderation, and when there's some small piece of odd functionality my computer doesn't have that I can't find in some free piece of software, I write it myself.

That's unfair. You must be a manager. :-) Go away, sell-out manager.

Anyway, you obviously didn't notice I made points on both sides. I made 7 points, only 3 of them were overtly cynical, and then I asked fair questions. Maybe you took it negatively because you are ashamed.

OK, I'll bite.

I'm an engineer who has had to take on the management of the department (due to the official manager being off sick and probably not coming back) as well doing all the engineering work I would have been doing anyway. I am currently sporting a soldering iron burn, have a significant covering of soot and filth from a boiler flue and am about to continue converting Z80 assembly to 80188 C - I don't think I've sold out :-)

OK, here are your 7 points again:

I would say that when interviewing someone who claims to have developed a professional product for an _industrial_ environment then I would certainly want evidence of work which is timely, required communication with other humans and was built to a approved standard because those are all necessary for the field I am working in (industrial burner/boiler controls).

Some of your points, such as requiring shiny packaging or third party witnessing imply that you had some specific employer in mind and do smack of cynicism - it is certainly not something I face. The salesmen knock up the shiny literature and customer testimonials to sell the kit - but ultimately it sells because it works well. I'm sure we all have an opinion about salesmen but this an engineering group so it is not relevant.

As for be> I'm aware that most employers value employed work more, while I value

It is a no-brainer that all employers are predominantly interested in what you do at work - that is what you get paid for and that is what has a direct effect on the success of the company. Many are quite concerned about your spare time and will help where they can but to put the company (and the livelihoods of its other employees) at risk for your relaxation is not going to happen.

You closed with:

This speaks volumes about what you consider the world of embedded engineering to be. It covers a lot wider field than you appear to be aware of. I think you'd consider the ideal job to be working from home, tinkering with an RTOS on a development kit to see what you could make it do for about two days a week. If anyone suggested that you might like to use the result of that tinkering in a product they might consider putting up for sale then you would throw your hands up in disgust and scream that your soul was being repressed. Heaven forbid you should ever be asked to interact with another person.

I do hope you find your nirvana but I think you'll have to carry on living at home with your parents to achieve it. Regardless of your skills then you are unemployable because your beliefs are at odds with everyone who might be inclined to employ you. Maybe you should work for yourself because it will bring some valuable realism to your idealism.

What is it about engineering That make arguments so searing About the worth of past-time endeavour In shed alone or with mate Trevor When in context of ones work Something we should ever shirk Why not embrace and tell it true That its something we were born to do Not to sit in befuddled daze But to create and clear the haze Ideas and Notions thats the ticket One of which may be the winning wicket If your employer your talent does not beware Would he rather miss his share Of the value of your creativity Outpourings of your natural serendipity.

There's some contradiction here. I think your engineering DNA is a bit weak. If you really had it then I don't think you'd feel stuck, nor would you speak derogatorily about sitting inside staring at a computer monitor. You'd relish sitting inside staring at a monitor, the same way you enjoy eating food. Most food you eat for sustenance, but do you never on occasion eat food for pleasure? Yes, eating your favorite food too often will decrease its flavor. Moderation is important, but no alternative should be disenfranchised. I like both writing code and running through a path flanked with trees. All are welcome.

I'd considered that but I decided that it would be worth the pain of doing it myself so that I get a very detailed understanding of how the system works. Getting an old hairy-eared programmer to do it would certainly make the process faster but it won't put useful commentary into the code to describe system operation and it won't explain the magic numbers. The original programmer is now unavailable due to sickness and I'm the first person to have encountered his code and his unfamiliarity with the need for maintainability.

If this was just a straight processor replacement and the product was to remain functionally the same then farming out would be a good solution but I need to add extra functions and change the existing ones.

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You're doomed. Combining modification and porting means you never know where you are.

Ain't that the truth :-(

I can't even just port the code and then add the changes because the hardware has changed too so all the drivers have to be redone.

Sounds like a completely different product to me. Ok, so there is an element of potential for technique re-use but as you are going to C from Z80 assembler perhaps you should consider it a new product. Do you have the operating instructions for the old product. From there you should look at what new functions you have added then design the code from scratch. I reckon it will take a lot less of your time than pouring over the old code in order to understand it (unless you don't have anything like a decent functional specification for the new product - how does anyone work like that?).

In retrospect, that's probably what I should have done. However, there was C code written for some aspects of the system which was mostly portable (although almost as hard to decipher as the assembly) and it was thought initially that all the code was in C - it was only part way into the task that I discovered the huge swathes of assembly hidden in amongst the compiler generated assembly files. One might think that it was not supposed to be found by anyone other than its creator...

The functional operation of the system is well known in the company so that helps the battle but at the moment it is just a case of gritting my teeth and getting to the other side without losing my sanity or invoking a gypsy curse on the original programmer.

Just because there was already some C code written does not mean you have to continue to bang your head against brick walls. I have, in the past, trashed two years worth of software design work and started again and still met the target for system completion 20 months later (a large and quite complex safety critical system).

Unless you are hard up against a rock you may find it is much quicker and easier to document the functional operation of the system in conjunction with those who know in order to create a decent specification to work from. Then get on and do the design decently.

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One rarely releases the first version. That is devoted to discovering the problems, and should normally be trashed and rewritten.

You sound exactly like the way I am. I feel your disparigment. It sucks. I have been doing it for about 7 years now.

Headhunters and Recruiters don't really care. They spend about 5 minutes discussing your skills and have no idea who you are. You are just another candidate. Nothing more than a dollar sign.

It is a catch22. How do you get into something you like without coming from that particular field? They want somebody that 'is' already in that field and can move into the same line of work. I suppose you could lie on your resume, just to get an interview, then go over your skills. Use them like they are using you. Make up your own company and how you did such and such. Then, the employers will get upset because you didn't come from that field and you don't even get a chance to explain your skills. It is just a lie on the resume. Been there, done that.

I don't know what to tell you, other than to network. Somehow get your foot in the door doing anything, then move from field to field. Maybe try the bigger companies. They hire more than smaller companies.

P.S. It really sucks waiting around for the job you want. Sooner or later, the depression becomes overwhelming. No matter what you try, nothing seems to work. It becomes a viscous cycle. You are already exhibiting the first symptoms of that. Wait until H1B Visas get better jobs, military experience means nothing, etc, etc.

I suggest just getting your foot in the door doing anything. Then network with the people already doing what you want to do. They can help get you to the position you want to do a lot eaiser and faster than recruiters. Rather than trying the same old path that keeps on failing.