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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education

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In my experience, a grad student has always been one who has been
graduated - i.e. already has a BS degree - and is working on higher
degrees, like a masters or doctorate.  The first four years of
college, you're an undergrad.

Thus, grad students already have four years of college behind them.
That implies a certain level of knowledge, certainly enough to work on
an embedded board.

Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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To me a grad student has always been someone who is a student but has also
graduated i.e. someone studying/researching for a higher degree MSc, MA,
PhD. Someone studying for their first degree is called an undergraduate, at
the end of which they become a graduate.

Peter



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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That makes sense. In retrospect it would appear that I'm being dense!



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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I don't think there is any definitive definition. By my own definition,
above, I was never a grad student because the study that I did after my
bachelor degree was not for any qualification. Even so, I have a Masters,
which did not require and additional work beyond the first degree. So, after
reflection, perhaps a grad student is anyone who is studying having
graduated already. That would allow me to have been a grad student. Joy! I
have done something new with my life!

Now, maybe that needs to be restricted a bit. If I study cookery having done
a CS degree does that make me a grad student?

Peter



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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I think another tricky point is that in the US people can graduate from
High School, whereas in the UK the term exlusively applies to university
level education. People finishing college rarely call it graduation
here. But then has a different definition in the US too doesn't it?



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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People in the UK never call it graduation when finishing high school or
(non university) collage.

In the UK
A Post Grad(uate)  is usually studying for a Masters or a Doctorate
A graduate has a University degree  BA, BSc, B.Eng etc
An undergraduate is studying for a University degree.
Below university they are just students or pupils

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  The US has a different definition for just about everything :-)

--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
[snip]
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Shouldn't that be college. Unless you're taking about a Media Studies
degree, in which case there is little difference.

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Yes, but the US has the one true definition. A bit like ANSI and ISO.

--
Peter



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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How dare you! Media studies graduates serve a very useful function in
society and without their invaluable burger flipping skills then there
would be famine in my household.

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Must...Control...Fist...Of...Death...



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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Well you're talking to a vegetarian so...

...ah, but my nephew is a thespian... but hang on, he works in a restaurant
by night.

I don't think I've proved anything - oh well!

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P



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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The US rarely  has the one true definition.

If you are referring to C the definition is ISO.  In fact it took ANSI
about a year to catch up with the rest of the world.

--
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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
[snipped]
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Just to be clear, I don't have a CS degree and have not studied cookery.
These were by way of illustration only.

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'Here' is relative, but I assume from your email addy that you're in the UK,
as am I. Yes, graduation seems possible from any educational establishment
in the USA although I have never heard 'grad student' in any other context
than a university degree.

Peter



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
2007 12:53:13 +0100, "Tom
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|[..]                                                                     |
|>>>>                                                                     |
|>>>> Perhaps I'm getting confused with my terms. For me, a grad student  |
|>>>> is someone studying for a Bachelors degree. [..]                    |
|[..]                                                                     |
|>>>                                                                      |
|>>> To me a grad student has always been someone who is a student but    |
|>>> has also graduated i.e. someone studying/researching for a higher    |
|>>> degree MSc, MA, PhD. Someone studying for their first degree is      |
|>>> called an undergraduate, at the end of which they become a graduate."|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

I knowingly use such terminology incorrectly very often. In correct
usage, "undergraduate" is an adjective pertaining to before the time
after the end; as is unfortunately the case with distortions to the
English language, the originally adjectival homonym "undergraduate" is
used as a noun as an abbreviation for "undergraduate person"; at the
end one is not a graduate, at the end one is instead a "graduand"; an
instant after the end the graduand who replaced the undergraduate is
replaced by the "graduate".

|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|">>                                                                      |
|>> That makes sense. In retrospect it would appear that I'm being dense! |
|>                                                                        |
|> I don't think there is any definitive definition. By my own            |
|> definition, above, I was never a grad student because the study that I |
|> did after my bachelor degree was not for any qualification. Even so, I |
|> have a Masters, which did not require and additional work beyond the   |
|> first degree. So, after reflection, perhaps a grad student is anyone   |
|> who is studying having graduated already. That would allow me to have  |
|> been a grad student. Joy! I have done something new with my life!      |
|>                                                                        |
|> Now, maybe that needs to be restricted a bit. If I study cookery       |
|> having done a CS degree does that make me a grad student?              |
|                                                                         |
|I think another tricky point is that in the US people can graduate from  |
|High School, whereas in the UK the term exlusively applies to university |
|level education. People finishing college rarely call it graduation      |
|here. But then has a different definition in the US too doesn't it?"     |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Academic terminology is a mess and not portable. E.g. even before the
dumbing down of European tertiary education from the Bologna Process,
in some countries (e.g. the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland) a so-called bachelor's degree is awarded for a three-year
course which would probably be called a diploma in Éire (though a very
samll quantity of such things have been called bachelors' degrees in
the Republic of Ireland) where what is called a bachelor's degree is
awarded for a four-year course. Germans often attempt to translate
into English their five-year courses' Diplome (singular: Diplom) as
diplomas or as masters' degrees, neither of which is particularly
helpful (e.g. they do not seem to be aware that in the British Isles
"master's degree" can be used to mean any of three different types of
postgraduate degrees).

Words can be of little use for details.

Regards,
Colin Paul Gloster

Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
On Jul 19, 4:09 am, "Tom Lucas"

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In USAian parlance [as far as I have learned! remember I am an alien
too] grad school means

I also have a lot of trouble explaining to USAians that a "public
school" is a privately operated school, and that it is not what they
call a "private school" but something closer to a "grammar school".



Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education




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The best thing about AVR and IAR is the easy start. You can have a
working program in 10 minutes without any prior knowledge. However AVR
is not so good as the production part. Being an AVR fan myself, I have
to admit that.

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Why paying so much attention to RTOS or non-RTOS question? A RTOS is
just another library to use. It is also a style of programming which can
be handy for some cases.

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

http://www.abvolt.com


Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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For the expert -- yes.  For the student, there's a pretty big learning
curve to using an RTOS effectively.  Getting all of your 'i's dotted and
't's crossed can be confusing the first time around, which can get in
the way of the (hopefully) real point of the exercise, which is getting
a headless, limited-resource processor to do something useful.

But you are probably correct that it's getting too much print in this
particular thread.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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The AND was just fine - FOSS is a commonly used term to avoid the confusion
that comes with the 'free' ambiguity. Apparently he's looking for something
that is free and open - software released under FSF approved licenses
qualifies for this job.

You are of course right that using free software doesn't mean zero cost. The
learning curve of free toolchains can be steeper than that of closed
commercial offerings, but I think this argument is invalid in this context.
The setup can be prepared, tested and documented in advance, allowing the
students to concentrate on using the tools for a specific assignment.

If this was an engineering company looking for a platform to build a product
on, bound by tight timings, and with no prior experience with the available
tools, a commercial product might be appropriate, but this situation is
different.

When teaching "embedded system with a focus on software engineering and
operating systems for embedded platforms.", having the complete source to
all parts available (the open part) AND being able to talk (write, publish,
criticice, ...) about its implementation (the free part) is certainly a
good thing (tm).

Best regards,

Dominic Rath

Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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OK. A LOT of free SW is NOT released under GPL or FSF etc.   I just
wondered if he was looking for Free, low cost or  FOSS


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
Chris Hills a écrit :
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Hi Chris,

And thanks for your replies,

So just to be more precise, free in my email was as free in FOSS; so the
best solution would be to have a FOSS :)

Since in an academic environment you can have always motivated students
that can develop and tune the software; more importantly we learn more
when looking at the source code! So the motivation is not only about
money :) it has to do also by the amount of knowledge that people can
get and transfer 'freely' to other.

When it comes to developing real world applications $that bring money$ I
agree it is more useful to have more complex tools that can optimize the
production.

I have noticed that few state of the art FOSS exist for embedded systems
:(  This has to do perhaps with the fact that dev. environments are so
related to (hardware) technologies that most of the time proprietary, am
I wrong when saying that?


Kind regards,








Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
writes
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OK

I don't believe that for many reasons.

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Then you don't need FOSS. In fact in your situation it would be counter
productive.

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This is true and will remain so.

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No that is part of the reason.

--
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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: Req: (Free) Embedded Platforms for Education
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Sorry for the nitpicking (well, not really, because this really _is_
important to me), but what would those reasons be? Remember, this is not
for some company with no FOSS experience trying to get their product to
market within a predefined time/cost frame (even then - if done right, free
software certainly can compete with closed & proprietary software).

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Why is that? Even if the students don't get to see a single of the OS source
code, the professor/tutor certainly can get (and use!) a lot more
information about an open source OS than about a closed OS.

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Attach a serial console to your SoHo network router - chances are it's
running Linux. There are complete families of commercial devices running
Linux (e.g. Buffalo *station NAS, Linksys routers, ...).
On the development side, the embedded systems ports of GCC are profiting
from every new GCC release. There are certainly areas where FOSS lacks
behind, but the strongest argument for free software is that you're able to
change that, and even if you don't, others certainly will.

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Marvell seems to be a company with a horrible reputation when it comes to
being open about their products, yet they're actively pushing support for
their devices into the Linux mainline.
The OpenMoko team is working on free drivers for the 2D/3D accelerator chip
that's going to accompany their first mass-market mobile phone (FIC
Neo1973).
Major embedded players (Windriver for example) are moving to Eclipse.
I'm confident the list of free software being in state of the art embedded
use could be continued for quite a while.

The point is that this isn't a fundamental problem, it just takes time to
realize the benefits that come with free software.

Regards,

Dominic Rath


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