I think that is what we are complaining about. They don't do enough them selves.
sites? What about books. anyone can publish ANYTHING on the Internet. At least books get to be reviewed during production. However it often appears that the the students have not even spent time searching for themselves.
I think I and a great many others would disagree here. YEs you need experience as in all jobs, this you get after qualification. Embedded systems can be taught. However your email indicates that I should avoid anyone from:-
I.G. National Open University Jaipur (India)
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Forums such as this rely on the kindness of people answering questions. I don't think it's right to do someone's homework for them but it doesn't hurt to push them in the right direction rather than lambast them for asking. I was very nervous when I first posted here because a lot of newbies had been given short shrift and there appeared to be a lot of intellectual elitism going on. I lurked for many weeks before posting until felt I was able to ask a question but it was still nerve-wracking.
The embedded field is so wide and complex that when you start out it's difficult to know whether you are asking a stupid question or not. Legitimate questions can also look like homework assignments if not carefully worded and if English is not your first langauge it is even harder.
However, this only applies to usenet and e-mail requests are different because I consider them to be treading in consultancy territory.
I don't usually believe in kill files unless it is Bank of Nigeria or penis extension type spam. Some other groups I look at are plagued by bitter fighting and flame wars and I've been tempted to kill the participants but had I done so I would have missed an occasional nugget of useful information. I think c.a.e has a very high signal to noise ratio compared to many groups and it's a long time since there was anyone on here who made me think about plonking them.
Sometimes it's fun for the dummies. Plus everyone else can learn something from the solution - except the person whose had their homework done, admittedly :-p
I think usenet's role is pretty much misunderstood these days anyway. Google don't help the situation and destroys the community feel usenet should have but I think they've done good things too and have brought people here who would never have found it otherwise (for better or for worse!).
It depends how they ask which is the point being made. A lot of it is a blunt 2 line demand for information on something where the OP seems not even to have bothered googleing.
I have not seen that. The newbies given short shift are those who do not appear to have even done the basic research themselves. they want all the answers given to them without any effort on their part.
Besides you should lurk for a while and look at the archive. People get fed up with answering the same question every time the lecturer sets the new clas the same assignment as last year.
True. So ask and explain WHY you are asking, what you are trying to achieve etc .
However a lot of questions patently are homework.
It has never been a problem in the past... I have been on the Internet in NG's for over 16 years. It is only very recently that the phenomena Grant describes has appeared. Usually it is waves of similar questions... they all seem to set assignments at around the same time :-)
The problem is that often the solution is one that the student could not have done themselves. I have seen some very good solutions with carefully inserted flaws or things so advanced that it will be obvious it is not the students work.
I have to agree there. A lot of people using it don't know it exists. they think they are on Google.
I don't see that.
SO how did people find it before? Google has done a dis-service. Before people had to d a little work to find it and thus valued it.
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I'll agree with that - basic manners are required. Perhaps posters should be clearer to point out that they have tried searching first. Some people seem to have real problems finding anything on google for some reason. Perhaps they are being lazy and lying?
I've definitely felt an air of elitism - the very title of this thread is patronising if you happen to be easily offended. However, I must qualify this in that it very rarely raises its head and the vast majority of posters are very respectful. Mind you I could cite the "Books/Articles on Embedded SW Architecture" thread as one where someone who clearly an accomplished engineer in his field got a good grilling (correctly challenging his preconceptions) but at some points in that thread there was a bit of sneering going on. There was another example of this somewhere that I can't put my finger on at the minute.
As I say, it's not there often and once you know the group better you understand why people respond as they do - but I maintain that this is intimidating for newbies.
Perhaps a FAQ would be a good idea for this group. At the very least it could explain how to look through the archives.
That's all part of the uncertainty - it's not always easy to see what you might hope to achieve. I've only just found out that there was a tool that could knock out headers for my MCU but, not knowing that such a thing might exist, I didn't ask where I could find it and consequently have missed out.
Well yes, that's fair enough. A FAQ might help that but some people will ride roughshod over netiquette whatever you do. I have no problem with people attacking those.
Well this is all stems for the google revolution I think.
Well that's just child abuse ;-) Seriously though, a partial solution is one of the most useful teaching tools. At leasts it beats the "where do I start" problem which is really what a lot of people are looking for.
The google debate is always tricky. On one hand a great many people who might never have heard of usenet can now offer their opinions and knowledge, on the other hand a great many people who should never have heard of usenet can now offer their opinions and knowledge.
While the googlers are still considered to be invaders then there will always be friction. Google groups has revolutionised usenet and lots of people are now having to progress along the denial-resistance-acceptance change cycle and lots are stuck on resistance. It will eventually come right but it's going to be a bumpy road.
There's two sides to that coin as well and it touches on my point about the elitism earlier. Previously usenet was an exclusive little club that had very few members in relation to the user base of the internet and part of the entrance exam was being able to find it. Now google has removed that barrier all the existing members are disdainful to the new ones because they didn't have to "prove" themselves like they did.
Personally I loathe the google interface and prefer the style in outlook. I haven't tried other readers but there must be a lot of bad ones in use. The fury about top-posting and attributions is pointless to me because I can follow a thread easily with outlook and am actually irritated to have to scroll through the quoted text everytime someone adds a point. But that is an argument for another day.
In summary, I think google brings more people and thus more knowledge experience and opinion than ever before on usenet. Unfortunately it also brings kooks, morons and spammers too.
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Himanshu Chauhan
MCA (Final Year)
I.G. National Open University
Jaipur (India)
Mobile:(+91)-(98292)-(92757)
Web: http://members.lycos.co.uk/hschauhan
Email: hs.chauhan@gmail.com
"Education is what remains after one
has forgotten everything he learned
in school." -- A. Einstein.
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However the basics need to be taught. Much of it is learnt by doing it your self. As you point out this takes time *YOUR* time. These students seem to expect all the answers from experienced people without putting the effort in themselves.
Experience is gained by *YOUR* hard work. Both during your academic career and then in industry. Not by simply asking others to do it for you.
As the FAQ says for students wanting help (though not ever seem to read it)
Have a go your self first Have a go your self again
Then explain it is for homework (and BE POLITE)
Show what you have done and ask for hints and pointers (?:-)
NOT ask bluntly ask for a full solution instantly because you have not put any effort in your self.
Students who make the effort get helped.
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That is always going to be the case. Try talking to your suppliers. (Paul D has it)
I think that is what Grant was aiming at.
Google? the Search engine?
That is the problem the students are not using it.
:-) We know. serves them right.
SO if they posted a partial solution they would be helped. A lot of them ask for a complete solution having posted nothing and made no effort.
:-)
Why do people use google rather than a real new reader?
It was the same when AOL dumped its members on the net.
No. It hasn't done anything to usenet. Just a pretty front end I am told.
Actually Google has had to modify the way it works due to pressure from non-google usenet users. Long may it continue.
Completely untrue. MOST Internet users used usenet until recently. It was only with the very recent explosion on *non-technical* users on web based mail systems that the percentage of usenet users has fallen.
Fair enough. However 995 of those of use in "computing" and electronics could find it.
Not exactly. It is a case of the gate crashers have not bothered with the rules of the society they are joining.
I haven't got as far as using outlook for news yet.
No.... a lot of readers that conform to the prefered method of using usenet.
Yes. Another day. (you have to have a convention that the majority like)
Not at all. When AOL dumped it's user on the net most said the average IO on the net halved... the same might be said here.
That is the complaint from Grant.
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"Google has done a dis-service. Before people had to do a little work to find it and thus valued it"
is true. Its always better to spend some time reading the group and see the nature. Even better to search through the archives. But most of these posts are coming through the google's web interface and people probably don't even know that they are posting to the usenet.
I agree with you after reading the "keil compiler" and the "code banking in keil" thread". I don't have anything else to say!
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Himanshu Chauhan
MCA (Final Year)
I.G. National Open University
India
Web: http://members.lycos.co.uk/hschauhan
Email: hs.chauhan@gmail.com
"Education is what remains after one
has forgotten everything he learned
in school." -- A. Einstein.
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Regarding Google, I would encourage an effort to mount a protest to the (relatively recent) inclusion of useless hits from referring pages for included search terms; it makes technical searches very frustrating to have 900 useless hits when only three of them include all of the terms even when qualified by 'allintext' and plus signs.
Not only do I get email filled with trivial questions, but due to the nature of Yahoo groups, and my employer's fad for wanting employees available via various IM programs means that I get IM-ed from students during working hours. Sometimes a quick break to help a newbie is refreshing. More often, though, it's yet another thought-derailing interruption that strains my fragile civility.
How come these kids can IM me day or night, but can't seem to form a useful google search that would answer their problem?"
Perhaps your employer should not use such a public instant messaging medium. An alternative might be IRC (Internet Relay Chat) (some gratis clients are available from
formatting link
) hosted by a server belonging to your employer. I read that someone uses IRC at work for logging discussions. However, as an instant messaging medium to be used spontaneously at any unappointed time, it may not be ideal: disconnections due to ping timeouts etc. are amazingly common.
How do you figure? In the late '80s everyone I knew wanted an Internet feed for Usenet and then secondly for email; well into the '90s we ran a UUCP node strictly for Usenet access in the comp hierarchy. When ISPs arose, the folks I knew were ecstatic that Usenet was available over a SLIP link. HTTP was a novelty with little use when there were much better gopher resources (and the gopher archives in certain areas remained much more useful until quite recently).
DejaNews was a godsend and when they permitted posting it was a no-cost alternative to subscription with NNTP providers and very helpful. Google has destroyed all of those gains with their mangling of the interface.
I would encourage more NNTP providers to provide a no-cost web-based interface to counter Google; even for those folks whose ISP provides a no-cost NNTP feed, it is a pain to need to subscribe to a new group just to read and post an occasional message if you can't handle the bandwidth of that group's traffic. Google is convenient in that way and may account for some of the posts to technical newsgroups.
The main reason is, as I said, using google for posting hides that fact that students are actually posting to usenet.
Atleast, I couldnot find any news server located in India and paying foreign servers is too much of a hassle. Moreover, students don't take pain in searching for alternative as I did for searching public servers as AIOE. The problem here is essentially the same, finding the "shortcut".
Students don't know about usenet probably and if they do know, why take pain in locating news servers and using reader, if google is providing the interface for free?
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Himanshu Chauhan
MCA (Final Year)
I.G. National Open University
India
Web: http://members.lycos.co.uk/hschauhan
Email: hs.chauhan@gmail.com
"Education is what remains after one
has forgotten everything he learned
in school." -- A. Einstein.
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It's a shame Sharp buried it in the website because it would have been useful :-(
Partially. In yesteryear then searches might pull up usenet articles but it was always a bit cryptic to suss what they were about and where they came from. If you weren't aware of the usenet entity then it made it even harder. Now the groups interface makes is almost tolerable.
Part of the problem is that they are but are not aware of the whole sub-culture with which they are interacting.
Therein lies the Catch-22. If someone gave them a starting point then they could focus their effort. However, I agree that in reality they just haven't pulled their finger out and the end of term is looming.
Free and easy. Teranews and other free servers are a bit shakey. When the company changed providers then we lost our news-server. Now I give a tenner a year to Claranet who do a spiffing job but lots of people would be very unwilling to pay for usenet access when google lets them have an approximation for free.
That was a torment but it didn't take long for them to either integrate or go to chatrooms to stand in line to say "me too". They rarely bother anyone now unless you go looking for them. They also send each other viruses which keeps them out of normal people's way as well.
Ah, this would be the denial phase then. Usenet is still what it was before but it now has a user-friendly interface that lets any Johnny no-stars find his way in. This has very major implications (most of them bad) and will radically change the face of usenet. Once people had to hear about a newsgroup and then find a newsserver and set up a reader and then read the FAQ and then lurk for a bit and then possibly think about posting. Now anyone can do a brief search for embedded computers, spot this group and then pop in with their "How do I make a nuclear reactor using only my palm pilot" questions. They don't know that this has a community and personalities because it just looks like a regular support forum such as Sharp's or Logic PD's.
I'm not defending or attacking google here but I do think Google groups is one of the most significant events in usenet history. Pretty front ends have been tried before but none have been palatable to the masses until now.
This is the evolution process which will integrate the two cultures over time. Existing usenet can't just stick it's fingers in it's ears either and hope that google will change to suit it. CBFalconer's crusade is noble but is ultimately doomed. The quality of posts will inevitably decline but the quantity will go up. Whether that means the average usefulness goes down remains to be seen.
I completely disagree. Usenet is popular with some technical users but very few I've ever met have heard of it, far less use it. In a field like the embedded world then there are a lot more users than others but it is still pretty exclusive. I would say that most internet users have never heard of it and the percentage of technical to non-technical users is low and getting lower. I myself hadn't heard of it until about 5 years ago and I classed my self as a fairly savvy person on-line, certainly compared to most users.
Your statement may have been true 10-15 years ago when the internet was still fairly exclusive and quite technical to get access to for most people. However, the simplification of it and the explosion of non-technical users I believe has been good for the web and there's much more information, and useful information, than when I first went on-line in '93. Some here may scoff at this late start (I was only 14 at the time though) but back then almost no one had web access although I'm sure those that used it as a technical tool did have and they would be the ones interested in usenet. With that being the case I would agree that then most internet users were on usenet but I would say the opposite is true now.
The google effect on usenet will be very much like the AOL slurry bomb had on the web. Everything will eventually sort itself out and the technical cogniscienti will find another undisturbed haven to hang out until that too is made accessible by the masses.
Yes, but that's a pretty low percentage of total web users these days.
Same with the AOL problem. Time heals all.
The apparent IQ dropped but there were and are still nuggets to be found.
In the late 80's and early 90's everything on-line was an exclusive club.
I agree that I hate the interface too - it's a pity a little more thought wasn't put into it. However, the popularity would suggest that the great unwashed seem to like the interface - perhaps it's good if you've never had better?
I know I'm being the PC police here but Devil's advocate is important. The aforementioned students may not have had clue about their homework but "clueless" is more commonly used as a derogatory term and, I believe in this case is meant as such. The fact I agree with you is not in the spirit of proper debate :-)
With reference to elitism, would you not concede that the premise of the thread could be considered to be elitist by some? To someone who didn't know you or the good work you do it could come across as "As a highly desirable engineer should I waste my time on these morons who haven't learnt as much as me - don't you other highly desirable engineers agree?". Now I'm taking this to an extreme here but it is one valid interpretation of your post even though, I'm sure, it is not your intended stance.
I am a relative newbie compared to most on here and certainly don't receive e-mails from Indicatively Challenged (is that more PC ) students. Actually, I'd like to as it must be a great ego booster :-) I try to help where I can but I get as nervous about posting answers as in asking questions in case I come across as a clueless student and step into the path of a flaming. I would say that this a Good Thing and forces me to consider carefully what I'm writing but it does make me feel like someone on the outskirts and not _part of the elite_ which is what I've been getting at.
Having said that, these people have earned their right to be gurus and it's taken years of hard work to do. It would be ludicrously arrogant of me to expect to be treated like a guru as well - you have to earn your wings and that can be quite intimidating to a newcomer and you feel on trial all the time.
I would make the distinction between rude and clueless here. Perhaps there's a cultural divide too but I think basic manners are pretty international. I think I'm considering all us newbies as clueless when you are actually only talking about the homework beggars and the two line demanders. I have a tendancy to rant when I get started :-)
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