PIC18 transistor LED drivers

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Happy Halloween!

Last year I built a collection of plywood pumpkins to stick in the
yard on Halloween night.  I installed superbright LED's in the eyes,
nose, mouth, etc and was pretty pleased with the results.  This year I
want to animate the LED's.

I bought a DLP-245PL which uses a PIC18LF8720 to drive it's digital
I/O.  I need a simple transistor circuit to drive each LED.  There's
about 22 of them.  Typical LED voltage is 2.1V to 3.4V, current ranges
from 20mA to 30mA.

Last year I was driving the LED's from a simple 12V DC power supply.
Their cathodes are connected together and to ground.  The anodes
connected to appropriate resistors.  For the life of me, I can't
remember the equations appropriate for switching transistors.

It seems like optoisolators are a bit of overkill.  Things I'm worried
about are the base resistor and transistor selection, and the
possibility of sending 12V into the TTL outputs of the PIC.  It would
be nice to reuse the transistors I have on hand, which are: 2n2222a,
tip34, 2n3906.

chuck

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On 20 Oct 2004 12:18:52 -0700, the renowned snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Chuck)

x------[Rx]----|<|---- +12 (12V)
|               \
|               LED
|
B  |/C
-----[2K7]-------|
|\E  2N2222A, 2N4401 etc.
|
|
0V (5V) -----------x----------------------- 0V (12V)

Only tie the 12V supply ground to the 5V supply ground at one point.
(Do not allow the LED current to flow through the 5V ground circuit).

If you're using 30mA maximum, then a forced beta of 20 would imply a
base current of 1.5mA, so 2.7K is about right.

To calculate Rx, you need to know the LED forward voltage Vf. If
you're not sure, use 2.5 for yellow or green LEDs, 3V for white or
blue, and 2.0 for red.

Then Rx = (12V - Vf)/Iled

Eg. if the Iled is 20mA and the Vf is 3.0V, the equation gives 450
ohms, so round it up to 470R as the closest standard value. The power
disipation is I^2*R = 0.188W, so a 1/4W resistor will suffice for this
kind of application.

Alternately, replace the 2K7s and transistors with ULN2003A/ULN2803
parts to drive 7 or 8 LEDs with one chip.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers

snip

snip

Thanks Spehro,

Your circuit looks exactly like several others I've found on the web.
But it inspires me to ask two more questions.  How do I know what
amount of base current will drive the transistor to saturation?  Is
this what Hfe is used for?

One of my problems in design is that all the LED collectors are tied
to ground.  In order to use your design, I'll have to unsolder all my
wires and tie the anodes together instead.  Is there a way to avoid
all this rework?

Chuck

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On 24 Oct 2004 14:41:41 -0700, the renowned snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Chuck)

Yes, sorta. I know the hFE of those parts is fairly high (at 20-30mA
Ic and at normal temperature, and a bit of extra drop won't fry the
transistor), so to drive them well into saturation I use Ic/Ib = 20
(that's what I mean above by "forced beta" = forced hFE). You might
pick 10 or 25 as well- it's a fairly conservative number, but often
parts are actually spec'd at 10.

See, for example, the graph on page 3- top right for data
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

If there's no common between the supplies, you can tie the + sides
together (if there *is* already a common this step could damage a lot
of stuff), then flip the above circuit, using a PNP transistor. You'll
make the input "low" to turn the LED on:

+5, +12V (12V supply)

2K7       |
___    |<
Microcontroller -|___|- -|   2N3906/2N4403 etc.
high = off               |\
|
|
.-.
| | Rx
| |
'-'
|
|  /
V  / LED
-  /
|
----------------0V (12V supply)

(-7V relative to microcontroller ground)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers

Hi, Chuck.  I very much like Spehro's recommendations.  But I tend to prefer a
slightly different transistor topology than he recommended.

+12
|
--- ~
LED1 \ / ~
---
|
|
micro      |/c Q1
pin >-----|   2N2222 or
|>e 2N3906
|
\
/ R1
\
|
gnd

There are several reasons, but the main one is that since the emitter follows
the base which is itself nailed to the micro output pin, the current through
LED1 can be set precisely and independent of the +12V supply's variations.
Here, R1 is simply [(Vcc - 0.6V)/I_led].  Let the BJT do the work of figuring
out how to deal with changes in the +12V, though later tinkering choice or
otherwise.

Since you are really into 'animating' you might also consider doing some muxing
to reduce the total count of transistors, but using some PNPs, as well.  You can

Jon

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:19:13 GMT, the renowned Jonathan Kirwan

This method will generally work fine and has the advantages Jon lists.
Three possible issues.

1)    The trasistor will get warm. This isn't a serious issue with
the suggested parts and in this application.

2)    It's possible for the transistor to oscillate at high
frequency, depending on layout.

3)    If the transistor fails or is inserted incorrectly, 12V gets
back into the micro and destroys it. You can avoid this risk
(and any possible oscillation) with a small series base
resistor, yet retain the advantage of a constant current
source.

Note that with Jon's circuit you can put a couple of LEDs in series
without changing R1. You might be able to use more LEDs in series with
my circuit but the resistor will have to be lower.

Best regards,

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 18:07:46 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

Yes, that's letting the transistor "do the work" of picking up the remaining
voltage headroom.  But that power (the voltage the LED doesn't need times the
LED current) has to go somewhere.  Since I tend to want my LED V+ supply to be
whatever wall-wart I can find handy at the moment, I'd rather arrange it this
way than have to go re-soldering new resistors.

drive-wise, the base side of Cbc and Cbe aren't quite as "nailed" as I might
imagine and I can see the ability for some oscillation.  But I think the CJC for
the 2n3906 is 4pF and the CJE is 8pF, so it would take something in the many
tens (to hundreds) of MHz, wouldn't it?

Or is that what you were thinking?  I'd be interested to hear more on this.

But at the expense of reducing the frequency of oscillation you just talked

That's a nice additional point.  As long as there is enough headroom, using the
circuit I mentioned provides a consistent current regardless of the number of
LEDs.

Jon

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:18:45 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

Got it!  Thanks.

Jon

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:18:45 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

I know the exact equations are a little different here, but let me try to put
this into grossly simplified dynamic considerations that ignore the precise
quantities:

Looking at the 0V to 1.5V rising edge case, the inductance of long wires to the
base (I've found figures like 10 nH/cm) would limit the rate of current change
to (V2-v1)/L (V2 being the pin drive voltage and V1 at the base initially held
to zero by the BJT capacitance.)  This rising current is needed charge/discharge
the base-emitter and base-collector capacitances, before the transistor can
respond accurately.  (For simplification, I'll just say that the transistor
remains "OFF" until these capacitors are charged, rather than worry about the
exact details.)  At this point, the BJT goes into the normal region and
operates, driving the collector rapidly down in voltage.  This is coupled via
newly recharged base-collector capacitor back to the base, which now drives
downwards, shutting the BJT off again until the new (V/L) can again recharge the
BJT capacitor pair.  Etc.  This will be a damped oscillation on this rising
edge, an RLC thing, with the R being R1||R2 and the C being CJC+CJE?

Roughly speaking, is this about it?  And if so, I'd expect a different behavior
on the falling edge case.  Also, one could add a diode in parallel to the
emitter resistor so that the downward driven CJE of the BJT could discharge
somewhat more rapidly, at first, through that diode rather than just through the
emitter resistor?  (Not that this would impact things that much and it would
effect.)

Oh, well.  Let me know if and how I'm off the beam, here.

Thanks,
Jon

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:39:45 GMT, the renowned Jonathan Kirwan

Not necessarily damped. Gory details:

http://home.tiscali.be/kpmoerman/electronics/notes/efollow/efollow.htm

The bias is different when the output is low, so it's a bit harder for
it to oscillate.

Here's a simulation I did using a 2N4401:
www.speff.com/emitter_follower.pdf

With a lot more capacitance across the 180R it will oscillate
continously, once started, even if the input goes low.

In practical terms this may be an okay configuration for the purpose
intended if layout etc. is good enough, but with a lash-up, maybe not.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
We've slightly trimmed the long signature. Click to see the full one.
Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 16:33:20 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

charge/discharge

the

First thing I notice without bothering to read further is that this doesn't use
a collector resistor.  This would eliminate the R of the RLC, since I believe
that the equivalent is R1||R2 and with one of those zero, it's just LC, which
doesn't damp.

In other words, I'm still thinking my very gross simplification may still hold
here -- without having tried to read the "gory details" on the page (which I
will do.)

Try adding a collector resistor and what's that 180pF cap doing there???  I
don't wire up things *that* bad!!

Jon

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:25:26 GMT, the renowned Jonathan Kirwan

With 100 ohms (drops 2.4V at 24mA) and 10pF get continuous
oscillation.

(we're talking about the OP, not *you*, of course) ;-)

Anyway, it's a 180 ohm resistor (for 24mA nominal) and 8pF shunt
capacitance. Not that out of line.

This kind of setup is insensitive to loads on the collector, but very
fussy about the base and emitter, so it's not that badly suited for
this application if the layout is reasonable. Personally I'd rather
slap a 1K resistor in the base, which kills the ringing or oscillation
*and* protects the micro against faults in the driver.

www.speff.com/with_base_resistor.pdf

Re: PIC18 transistor LED drivers
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 17:53:55 -0400, Spehro Pefhany

Sounds good to me, sacrificing only a tiny bit of I(C) predictability for those