PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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When I google for the PIC 18F models, not much shows up. I only find
catalogs and datasheets, and not the amazing amount of hobby and student
projects that are available on the web for the 16F series.

Is there a good reason for that, or is that family just too new?

What do people here think about the 18F? Is it an interesting controller
or just more of the same?

 S.

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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I think most student and hobyist projects do well by using the simpler 16F. You
get to concentrate on the peripherals. The 18F is for more complex projects
requiring lots more software support, hence the support for a larger stack for
easier high-level language support.


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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I think that Atmels Mega AVR series is taking most of the market away
from Microchip's 18F series.  For performance and high-level language
support the AVR is hard to beat.

regards,
Johnny.


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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I think some of it is momentum, and some is evolution overtaking
that market segment, and some of it is just the general ugliness
of programming a PIC.

Last I looked, the 18F442 was like $4.20 ea. in low qty.  Philips
has an ARM based micro for around $5 these days that seems to
have a lot of momentum, TI MSP430 seems popular, as is AVR.  All
of these have decent core speeds and a version of gcc which helps
the hobby market.



Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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Absolutely not!  For the most part, the 18F is just as easy as a 16F to
configure (in fact many registers are designed for backwards compatibility)
and you get to avoid a lot of bank switching.

There are a few electrical characteristics that might get you in trouble
(the A/D conversion comes to mind) but otherwise it would be crazy for a
beginner to learn the 16F and "upgrade" later.

--
Ben Jackson
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Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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Isn't being new a good reason ?
The Flash version of PIC18xx did not show up until 2002, so in uC terms
it is very new. [Their dsPIC has been talked about since 2001, but has
only just started sampling.]

Contrast that with the PIC16C family, which has had over 15 years
shipping in OTP (longer in ROM )

So, it's really no surprise the PIC16 series shows up much more than the
PIC18 series, in the hobby/student arena.

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The PIC18 has larger opcodes, so was able to extend the opcode reach of
the PIC16, but it has also landed in a more crowded market segment.

-jg


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
If it ain't broke why fix it ?!
As far as a manufacturer...
In this highly competitive market, it can actaully be cheaper,therefore
higher profit, to go with what you know and works, than spend big bucks
reengineering getting the so called 'latest and greatest' chip to do the
job. Same is true about NOT flipping over to another manufacturers chip.
I shudder at the amount of time( and money!) lost reengineeering a product
only to find out the new chip wasn't available in quantity when the time
came.
As a hobbyist...
Again, if it ain't broke, don't change. I've found the F84 and F877 to be
fine for all the projects around here.Over 15 years of new toys and gadgets
and never had a true requirement to change chips. Course I don't find PIC
ASM hard,either.Heck 35 instructions isn't that difficult...compared to the
120+ for the Z80 back in the '70s.

Jay



Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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16F was good but 18F is great. I replaced a 16F77 and two 93C86 EEPROMs
with one 18F452 and it paid for itself. A lot of the wrinkles have been
ironed out, there's a hardware multiplier, parts are cheap enough,
bigger stack, flexible clocking, quite a few reasons to switch.

Why not so popular yet? People have tooled up for the 16 series and
(unlike AVR) there are no free compilers for PICs.

Regards,
Mike.
--
Mike Page BEng(Hons) MIEE           www.eclectic-web.co.uk
Quiet! Tony's battling the forces of conservatism, whoever we are.

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 22:42:44 +0100, Mike Page

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I have purchased my C compilers for the PICs, but I had no idea that there is no
free version available.  Is this really true?

Jon

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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Not really.  Not in my book, anyway.

Jon

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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The Hitech C compiler seems to come close to meeting the C90 standard,
depending on your definition of "close".  As has been pointed out to me
in this newsgroup not too long ago, it is not fully compliant.  But in
practice, it is much closer to standards compliance than I ever dreamed
of expecting for a PIC compiler.

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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Does it permit reentrant code, or does it still treat auto variables
like statics? In which case it ain't C....

IAR is probably the nearest to "standard".

pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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Since the call stack is strictly limited and there is no way to
move items on or off it, re-entrancy seems inherently impossible,
barring an interpreter.

--
 "A man who is right every time is not likely to do very much."
                           -- Francis Crick, co-discover of DNA
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Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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This isn't true for a PIC18fxxx, there are PUSH and POP instructions. I
think the stack is typically only 32 levels deep though.

Al


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?

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I never have and I cannot imagine I ever will use reenterant
code in a PIC like microcontroller application.

Mike Harding


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 11:19:40 -0700, Mike Harding

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On a PIC one cannot imagine it because it is impossible or close
to impossible. On something like an AVR, I have done it, and it makes
some applications much easier and more elegant.
It is easy to make re-entrant interrupt routines. One also do not have
to bend over backwards to not cause the compiler to use "complex"
routines such as diviide or multiply or a switch statement having more
than about 8 cases.

Regards
   Anton Erasmus





Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
I opened up the latest issue of Circuit Cellar and there's a project using an
18F.


Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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No, it's too expensive on a bang-per-buck level, and there's no real
momentum behind it.

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It's got less wrong with it than the PIC17, but it's a hell of a lot
more expensive than the PIC16. And it's harder to program and needs more
code space than AVRs or HC12s. And it's certainly pricier than the
Motorola.

There are also some badly-handled incompatibilities (you lose a chunk
of Access RAM) between the 18 and the 18F, IIRC (or is that only the
18Fs with CAN controllers - I forget...)

Microchip's low-end customers keep buying the baby PICs, their attempts
to move upmarket with the 17, 18 and dsPIC (30) just aren't succeeding.

(Personally, I think they should license the ARM7 core and wrap that up
in typical Microchip packaging with a narrow data bus - the gate count
is probably comparable to the PIC18!)

pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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If you have a proven product shipping, why change ?

  There are many ways companies spin the stats, that's why we have around
4 claiming to all be #1!

  If you look at the PIC volumes, and work back the Average selling
price, Microchip has one of the lowest ASPs in the 8 bit area, of just
under $1 - so clearly their volumes are heavily skewed to the bottom end.
  From a revenue viewpoint, it is different, and ISTR seeing ~50% of
Microchips revenues are now in Flash uC.

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  Atmel are now doing that, and going down as small as 32KF ARMs in
tqfp48. Must make for interesting politics between their AVR and
FlashARM groups :)

  Microchip are well behind on the release of their dsPIC, and it has
to wait for the tool flows, resource, and training to develop.
  Assuming the dsPIC hits critical mass, where does that leave the PIC18?

  With Microcontrollers today, the 4 P's [Price, Peripherals, Package &
Process ] matter more than the core, and if those are equal, a
Multisourced core will win out.

-jg



Re: PIC 18F not so popular yet?
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I don't think they're trying to compete with each other. dsPIC is being
aimed at the low-end fixed-point DSP market.  Which is also getting
crowded....

Microchip really has two things going for it - packaging and Keeloq.

pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

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