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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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That takes me back a long way... Colpitts and Heartly were the two I
played with :-) Though we used electronic calculators which were just
about affordable then.

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That is why you go to University to understand the theory and then need
some time of on the job training to understand the practice. However one
is no use without the other.

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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Chris,


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I still have my first calculator, at Texas SR-50. Got to restore it
though but I won't use it much because it's not RPN. Here is the weird
thing: TI called it "slide rule"!

I guess my trusty Aristo-Scholar VS slide rule must have been miffed
about that. But it keeps blessing me by never displaying 'low battery'.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot


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Thanks!. An old friends name whom I'd long forgotten. Just had a pleasurable
hour rummaging through those slide rule websites.
Used that Aristo for years but had absolutely no remorse in ditching it the
moment I'd saved up enough for my first calculator.
john



Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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   Did you ever use those paper "Slide rules" that were made to
calculate values for tuned circuits, or to design single layer coils?  I
still have the Electrovoice L/C calaculator, and may have the old Allied
Electronics Coil calculator.

 
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Michael,

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Yes, I've got one of those. Just have to find it :-) I use the Aristo
for that stuff as well.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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The C.Eng requires a degree, More to the point a suitable degree from a
recognised university.

You also need three supporters who are also C.Eng and are prepared to
sign off on your work experience.

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All these "bureaucrats" will be at least degree qualified with a lot of
relevant experience behind them.  No one on the panel is not a qualified
Engineer.

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Well the C.Eng requires the relevant degree from a known university PLUS
several relevant experience plus continued, structured, on the job
training.  So if the C.Eng is used as a level for the license all the
licensed Engineers will be degree qualified and at least 5 years
relevant experience.

IT is possible to get a C.Eng without a degree but the amount of
relevant experience goes up a LOT (about a decade I think) and they do
expect suitable training and pre-degree qualifications etc

In theory you should only have the Good People licensed but like doctors
some Good People don't manage to pass the exams (brilliant but freak out
at an exam)  and a few Bad People who get though but like doctors and
architects it works 95% of the time.
 

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\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Chris,

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That's just one of the problems. Here in the US they often require ABET
compliance of your course work. For many older engineers that is not
quite possible because even top notch universities didn't have some ABET
cert 20+ years ago. Also, you'd exclude pretty much all foreign
universities. That is hardcore discrimination and can (and would be)
litigated.


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That's the 2nd problem: There is no critical mass here. The classical
chicken and egg situation. I know a whopping two licensed engineers but
both in the wrong field since they are civil engineers. I don't know any
licensed EE personally (ok, if I make it to one of Jim's parties some
day I would know at least one) and have never come across one in my
work. So, where would someone like me or all my colleagues obtain three
supporters?

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But not qualified in my field. What do they know about medical
electronics? Sure, they could test me on how to design bridges and I
would still remember the basics of structural load and stress
calculations. Problem is, I do not design bridges.

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And how would the others get a job? How would you prove experience if
you never worked under, for or next to a licensed engineer because there
were none?


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That's scary. Passing those tests doesn't take much. But the thought of
someone designing medical equipment without truly understanding EMI
mechanisms, dielectric breakdown scenarios or regulations such as IEC601
would outright frighten me.


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That's the theory. In practice decades of licensing rules have IMHO
failed to prove that they improve anything in electrical engineering. I
have even read a statement of a licensing body admitting to that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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They usually are sensible about that. They look at the time and place of
the degree for older engineers.

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No it wouldn't. Not in the UK. There are plenty overseas universities
that are recognised. Even US ones.  OTOH the US is usually quite good
and not recognising anything foreign.


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This is sometimes a problem in the UK. The C.Eng is usually obtianed via
your own institute. For SW and electronics it would be the IEE or BCS
and you would know people in these. In the US I assume it would be the
IEEE. They can usually provide suitable people you can talk to.

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Yes. EXACTLY Qualified in your field!!!
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Virtually everything. The people who asses your application and do the
interview... (I forgot to mention that apart from the academic
qualifications, the relevant experience and additional training there is
also an interview) will be in the same field as yourself. In your case
medical electronics.

In the case of a friend of mine it was a bit awkward as the top person
in his field was also one of his sponsors. So he was not able to do the
interview for his candidate. .

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What have bridges got to do with it? Unless you are a Civil Engineer
applying via the Institute of Civil Engineers.

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In the UK there are enough for this to not be too much of a problem.  

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It scares me too but at the moment anyone can do medical stuff at the
moment. However in the case where there is no degree you need to prove a
lot more *relevant* experience and I thin a 10K word paper to support
that is formally assessed and the three supporters and your work record
signed off which as to be a LOT better than at the moment when any one
can do the medical work.

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If the licence became a requirement it would improve things. Just like
it has in all the other professions where it is required.

the problem is that as licensing is not required most do not bother
(workers or employers) Once the majority are in the system then it will
improve.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Chris,


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So who would that be on the California board?


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Sorry, but I seriously doubt that. Medical ultrasound is such a small
field. If you try to find an analog engineer in that field the number of
really useful resumes coming back is typically zero. Tried it. People
who have never designed an ultrasound scanner know next to nothing about
that technology. It's not taught in enough detail anywhere.


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Just look at the question on those exams.


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Well, not in the US.


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I disagree 100%.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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No idea why would I. I was explaining how the UK system works. You apear
to be just splitting hairs for the sake of it.

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So you are a genius in your field and no one else can judge you. I bet I
can find a few people who know about that filed though :-)

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which exams?
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No yet anyway but it will happen in the US as there tends to be more
litigation. I have said for years that this will be driven more by the
Insurance companies than the engineers.

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That is would work in this industry or that it works well in all the
others.

It is proven to work in all the other professions so what is your
evidence that it won't work in embedded engineering?


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Chris,

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Maybe in the UK but not in the US. This is not about splitting hair.
It's about the fact that such a regulatory system is wrong. Just my
humble opinion. I know we may differ in opinion here.

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I am not a genius. All I said is that there isn't likely anyone on a
license board that could assess a candidate in my field of work. The
chance of finding a license holder that could do that instead is pretty
much zero as well. I would know them because this world is very small.
Non-licensed peers (which is pretty much all of them in my case) are
typically not allowed to vouch for an applicant. Maybe that's different
in the UK, but it is that way here.

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The ones that you have to take to obtain a license, of course. If they
have the inclination to let you sit for the test, that is.

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That's another dead end and here is why: When you have a license in the
US you usually are forced to take out liability insurance. When you work
in medical you will, in most states, not find a single carrier who will
underwrite you. Which means you might have just shot yourself out of
business by getting a license.

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Engineering licensure exists since many decades. There is no proof that
it has improved public safety or anything else. I had a nwespaper
article where even a state license board admitted that. And no, I can't
tell you where it was. I threw it out because it was irrelevant for
someone working in industry because we are exempt.

We are talking about engineering here, not medical. But even in medical
there have been lots of cases where incompetence was proven yet these
guys had a long-standing license to practice. Of course, in nearly all
the local cases that been reported in our daily paper the license was
then revoked. But what good does that do the patient who had been harmed
or died?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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A few points here:
1) You can obtain a PE license in any state that adheres to the NSPE
guidelines without a degree if you have 20 years experience in the
field. That invalidates your concern about ABET certification, since
most engineering schools in the US have had the certification for the
past 20 years.

2) Passing the test is only one of the wickets you need to pass through.
  At least as important as the test, is your references who ascribe to
know your work and attest that it is worthy of a professional.

3) Finding the PE references is a little harder as an EE, but is not
impossible.  There's a good chance, for example, that a mechanical
engineer in your firm has his PE and can truthfully sign off as being
familiar with your work.  If you have outside consultants doing work
(not contractors, consultants) for your company, one or more of them
will likely have a P.E.  As a last resort, there is nothing stopping you
from joining the local chapter of NSPE and getting friendly with the
members. Many would be very interested in hearing about your work. They
really are a likeable lot. :-)

4) Most states in the US DO REQUIRE someone on staff with a PE license
if you are offering engineering services in any form to the public. If,
as you signature suggests, you are a consultant offering design
services, you DO NEED to have someone with a PE license on your staff in
most of the 50 states.  Some states prosecute that more aggressively
than others.  My state took all of about 6 months to find me after I
hung my shingle out. In most cases, the state has the authority to issue
a cease and desist order against you if you cannot prove you have a PE
on staff.

5) Having a PE license doesn't give you carte blanche to go out and do
stuff outside of your area of expertise.  In fact, the code of ethics
specifically states that you won't sign off on stuff that is not in your
area of expertise.

6) Some of the medical firms I've dealt with specifically do require a
PE on a project involving medical equipment that could potentially
endanger a patient.  I'm not sure if it is a regulatory requirement or
not, but it was a requirement from somewhere.  If you are working for a
medical firm, ask around. I'll bet there is a PE involved somewhere in
the project.  Every medical project I've been involved with has had a PE
directly involved with the project.

7) PE licensing is intended to protect the public by certifying that you
have demonstrated competency as an engineer in your field.  You needn't
have the PE to do engineering work, but if the engineering services are
offered to the public, someone with a PE has to be accountable for the work.

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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The worst engineer I knew was an EE - PE. Never designed a damn thing.
Knew how to dress, though.

But then, he "was" an EE in a field where PE mattered - building systems,
plant stuff, etc. Certainly not eletronic design. What can I add to what
Paul Carpenter wrote? Certain companies needs PEs as window dressing,
the same way some rich heiresses need poodles.


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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[...]
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P.S. I've seen you use PE in your title. I did not mean to insult. Your
assertions seem to be contrary to many engineers' experiences.

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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It is not window dressing. As Ray said you opperate in your area of
expertise.  If his area was building systems and plant systems designing
the low level HW or Sw may not be his area. Know how to design a safe
system, the interlocks and legal/safety requirements etc. Therefor he
could design a system and give the requirements spec to some one else to
actually implement.

On the other hand some EE PE's could design the HW but not the system or
the software.  

PE or C.Eng etc does not mean qualified to do it al but it means
qualified in certain areas and professional enough not to try and do
other stuff. SO a HW PE will not attempt any critical Sw

BTW Bryan could you design those systems and be sure the were safe and
up to al the legal requirements?

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\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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I'm unaware of digital design and software being areas of expertise
where a PE can be registered in Texas. Maybe that's changed, but I
doubt it. So that point is probably moot.

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Maybe. I've never worked in those areas, but I'm more familiar with
processes where designs and implementaions are verified, not those
processes where the designer is certified and the product is not.

Sometimes this makes sense. It's hard to non-destructively test
a bridge's strength - it must be right the first time. A complicatated
system is never right the first time.


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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I think embedded Sw can be. Some one else here should know..

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In large systems often the process has to be certified. Also the
designers have to be. The product is also tested.  

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A bridge or a building is a complicated system.  However the rate of
change in civil engineering is  not the same as in electronics.

however the PE or C.Eng is a step in the right direction. Not perfect
but the right direction. And I am sure many of use can contrive a
situation where it might not be the solution. But if it is over say 80%
effective that is a hell of a lot better than now.


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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[...]

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Most MEs know a little about high speed digital circuit design. NOT!

My degree is ME, and I can attest that our academic electrical exposure
was little and bad.

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His signature does not indicate he offers engineering services. Consultant
could mean financial consultant. That's where the term consultant is most
often used.

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From what I remember, using the unqualifed term "engineer" in business
may get one in trouble. Using the term "software engineer" is harmless
as well as meaningless.

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A rarified world. I vaguely remember a 3.95 GPA requirement for getting
into "medical engineering", a program I'm not sure even exists anymore.

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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
Hello Ray,

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Which leave out anyone with a degree from a foreign school. 20+ years
ago government bodies told students it would be good to gain overseas
experience and even study there. So, what do we tell them now? That they
shot themselves in the foot and shouldn't have listened?


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Never met a single one. In 20 years.


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If remembering correctly NSPE requires at least EIT status to join.
Neither I nor any of my peers have that.


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California doesn't if you only provide services to industry. We have an
industry exemption.

Other states don't, and I sure won't ever live there.


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They can only do that if you have knowingly pretended to be a PE but
don't have a license. Anything else would get them inundated in litigation.


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I have never encountered that. We live by standards such as UL2601, FDA
regulations and so on.


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None of them I was involved in had one. And I did ask. The only person I
found in that direction (and that was one lone case in 20 years) had
passed the FE test a long time ago and was thus an EIT. She never took
the final test for PE because there really wasn't a need for it.

As I replied to Chris before a PE license can oblige you to mandatory PL
coverage. Just for the fun go out and try to find an underwriter. I did,
until I had blisters from dialing. Zilch. Nada.

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That's why I do not offer services to the public ;-)

Heck, I have met a whole lot of power engineers working for utilities.
They certainly provide direct services to the public. None of them was a PE.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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Not in the UK They "recognise" a lot of over seas universities.

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Only if you don't recognise foreign universities. Or forigen
qualifications.

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I wonder what world you do live in... :-)

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the FDA ones don't seem to bad.

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You can get it in the UK
It will get better as more people are required to be a PE/C.Eng etc


--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
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