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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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So you can't find an answer to the juvenile malnutrition statistics -
you seem to be declining into a sore loser ...

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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I see a lot of fat kids, but precious few skinny ones.

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I'm not aware of losing anything of value.

John


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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http://www.childinfo.org/areas/malnutrition/wasting.php

0.6 moderately wasted kids per 100,000 isn't all that many, and such
kids aren't all that active, so I'm not surprised that you haven't seen
them.

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Until you start looking for smart engineers, and find that minority
groups are under-represented. Persistent under-feeding makes kids slow
long before it makes them clinically wasted.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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You are misreading the table.  It is in percent, not in per 1e5.  So 6
per thousand, according to the table.

But then you read the footnote, and see that 'moderately wasted' means:
* Below minus two standard deviations from median weight for height of
reference population

If you had a 'normal distribution' (Gaussian) of weights, then you
would expect 2.2% (22 per thousand) to be below the median (which would
also be the mean) by more than two standard deviations.

It doesn't mean that those 0.6% are or are not malnourished.

Elsewhere in this thread
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But the table you cite in trying to bolster your argument has the US as
having the SMALLEST reported percentage of wasting.  (European
countries tend to have no data listed.)  Which is support for calling
Americans lard-asses (which everyone does) but not for your contention
that malnutrition is worse in the US than in most Euro countries.

--
David M. Palmer   snipped-for-privacy@email.com (formerly @clark.net, @ematic.com)

Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot



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Malnourishment can simply mean having a poor *quality* diet missing important
nutrients. There isn't necessarily any correlation with 'wasting' i.e. low
weight.

Interestingly, the poor quality diet may result in the person feeling underfed
and this can then lead to overeating and obesity. So you can end up with
overweight malnourished ppl.

Graham


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Shit. You seem to be right. My apologies to the group, and my thanks to
David M. Palmer.
I've been reading too many medical statistics where they do quote per
100,000.

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The distribution is the big if. Children's weights will obviously not
lie on a Gaussian distribution - there will be a lot more very fat
children than very skinny children, because gross obesity takes a long
time to kill you, while starvation can do for a kid in a few weeks.

As John Larkin has point out, most of the variability in the U.S.
population is going to be concentrated in the fat kids.

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Seems very likely that they are. Children starve a lot fasster than
adults.

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There is other evidence that suggests that juvenile malnutrition is
vanishingly rare in most Western European countries, and appreciably
less common than in the U.S.A.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/databases.htm
 
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Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Being thin doesn't mean a kid is starving to death. It just means
they're skinny. Both my wife and I were very skinny as kids; luckily,
she still is.

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The US has an ethnic mix very different from Europe's. Native
Americans and Pacific islanders tend to get fat on Western diets.
Southeast asians and filipinos tend to be small and thin. The
distribution will still be close to normal (you can't avoid the
central limit theorem) but will be wider than in an ethnically uniform
population.

But if the below-2-sigma part of a population is defined as
malnourished, then all populations have equal proportion of
malnourished.

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The children who die of malnutrition in the USA are overwhelmingly
victims of profound illness, generally birth defects. One rarely
reads, say, of a lunatic parent who allows a child to die from lack of
care. We have AFDC, food stamps, free meal centers, charities, and
child protective agencies that look out for kids. Far more dangerous
is being killed by trauma, overwhelmingly likely to be inflicted by a
step-parent or other non-blood-relative.

But what is this obsession with US juvenile nutrition? It's a weird,
recurrent theme.

John


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 10:22:12 -0800, John  Larkin

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Slow-man is running out of things to harp about and is now grasping at
straws.

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Jim Thompson hasn't a clue about the subject under discussion, but we
get his two cents worth anyway. I had hoped that he was still busy
trying to get my security cleaances revoked, but it seems now he wants
to be futile someplace else.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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Children, children - play nice.

I find it odd that grown men, and no doubt entirely mature and sensible
grown men, revert to kindergarten tactics when arguing via this protective
barrier we call the Internet. To say "it's the nature of usenet" doesn't cut
it - we're still people, no matter what the medium. Is dignity disposable?

And no doubt I'll get flambéed now for pointing this out...

Steve
http://www.fivetrees.com



Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 11:33:35 -0700, Jim Thompson


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Sure looks that way.

John




Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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The  disitinction between skinny and active - which is fine - and being
skinny to the point of being listless - which is not - is the one you
should be making. Kids who don't get enough food to be able to afford
to run around fall short in their intellectual development. A few years
ago Scientific American published the results of a South American study
comparing the effects of various sorts of food supplements
(protein-enriched did better).

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Evidence? Caucasians can be fat as kids - as I was, and my brothers and
couple of my cousins (not obese, just well-coverd). Japanese kids
tended to be skinny because they used to be starved - the current
generation is is pretty much up to Western height, which deals with the
hereditary component there ...

My betting is that your weight distribution will have a long tail on
the fat/obese side, and a shorp cut-off around skinny - very
non-Gaussian.

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Statistics? You've got a fair population suffering from "food
insecurity" for whom your welfare system - such as it is -doesn't work.

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What's really weird is that the richest country in the world has a
significant proportion of its population suffering from food
insecurity.

Your welfare system seems to be crippled for ideological reasons - you
want to starve people back to work, even when there isn't any work to
starve them back into. Your ideologues seems to be too stupid to
realise that starving families damages them - and is particularly
damaging to the kids, who are your next generation of workers.

In this context an effective welfare system fulfils the same function
as the oil-soaked paper I wrap around my tools after I've used them. so
that they will still be in good nick when I want to use them again.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
On Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:10:34 -0700, "David M. Palmer"



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By that standard, my wife is "moderately wasted". And she's healthier
than I am, and even more beautiful.

John



Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot



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Like I always said: psychopathic narcissist.


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Hey, whatever works.

John


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot
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Bill, as much as I admire you, please come here to Slovenia and show me
how we're doing worse than say Greece, Portugal, Spain or any other
EU country in terms of malnutrition.

--
Siol
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Bill, himself, is so malnourished that he's demented ;-)

                                        ...Jim Thompson
--
|  James E.Thompson, P.E.                           |    mens     |
|  Analog Innovations, Inc.                         |     et      |
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Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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BMI of 23.5. I hope it doesn't go over 24 before I get back to the
Netherlands - having dinner with old friends is very nice, but it isn't
any way to get slimmer.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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Don't argue with me - argue with

http://www.childinfo.org/areas/malnutrition/wasting.php

Former Yugoslavia is cleaning up after a nasty series of civil wars, so
it isn't surprising that your welfare system is in worse shape than the
U.S.A., but we can hope that you will be back up to the European norm -
no juvenile malnutrition (bar a few vicitims of lunatic parents) - in a
few more years. Romania is stll recovering from Ceausescu and we can
hope that they will do as well. The Czech Republic and Hungary are a
bit more puzzling. I'm worndering how much of their malnutrition is
confined to the Gypsy minority.

http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.php?id56 %

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Re: OT:Shooting Ourselves in the Foot

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There's nothing to argue about, slovenia is not listed and neither is most
of EU?!?!

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I always thought you checked your sources very well, but apparently not so.
I find that very dissapointing since you're always fiercely defending your views.

Slovenia is the only country from the Ex-Yugoslavia inside EU at the moment
and as such the only one you can use in your comparisons, we were talking about
EU.
The only war that took place here lasted 10 days, yet you can hardly call that a
war.

I assure you, no malnutrition of children resulted from this 10-day incident
which took
place 15 years ago. Our BDP, if this has any bearing at all for malnutrition, is
comparable
to the other, admittedly among the less wealthy EU members I listed, such as
Portugal.
Besides, the culture of eating is very high here. There are far less McDonalds
style chains
here than in the NetherLands since they're not popular with people, for example
Dairy Queen
went belly up years ago.

Here is the full "War" story: http://www.uvi.si/10years/path/war /

--
Siol
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