OT: Disk "imaging" SW

---^^^^^^ note the quotation marks

From experience, what typically happens is some part of the OS gets mangled. Or, some application.

If you can boot *another* "system" that has access to the first system's "disk" AND understands the filesystems that it uses, then you can perform these tasks without relying on the integrity of the "mangled/corrupted" system. Hence the appeal of a "recovery disk" that *CAN'T* be corrupted/mangled (because it is inherently R/O).

You (i.e., *I*) don't want this to be free of "cost". The user engaged in some behavior/practice that resulted in this problem. Expecting to be able to get back to normal "Scot free" would not discourage (sorry for the double negative) that sort of continued behavior!

Reply to
Don Y
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+42

Would you keep a defective hammer?

This "trick" doesn't always seem to work.

I've, instead, been trying to identify *when* these file handles get "forgotten" -- and, try to avoid those activities!

E.g., I *think* "moving" (not copying) directories tends to leave a zombie. So, I *copy* directories and then delete the original later (even this doesn't appear to work 100% -- e.g., it may also be related to when the window exposing that directory is closed).

Typical MS to not be able to get even BASIC file ops right!

Reply to
Don Y

I don't have a say in the choice of OS and apps that are installed on the machines. Presumably, they will be whatever the associated school districts expect students to have available.

I have *zero* interest in evangelizing for .

OTOH, past experience has taught me that these machines *frequently* come back infested with malware, corrupted OS images, etc. For friends/neighbors, I will undertake the task of trying to recover everything that *can* be recovered. And, admonish them how not to get back in this same "pickle" (I think the idea/embarassment of having to come BACK to me a second time after repeating their errors is enough to keep them from screwing up a second time!). And, if I *do* see the machine again, I can count on them to, at least, have the CD that I created for them containing the appropriate drivers, etc. (to save me the hassle of chasing these things down again)

I simply can't (won't!) maintain an archive of all the various drivers for each of these *different* student machines. Nor do I feel generous enough to commit to "fixing" their messes each time they are negligent (if there is a cost/inconvenience to this, then *they* are more likely to avoid getting into this situation in the future! OTOH, if the cost is entirely *mine*, they have no incentive to minimize it!). I donate ~400-500 hrs annually and would like to know those were "new" hours -- not "repeats" of hours previously donated (i.e., redoing something I had already DONE)

The obvious solution is to provide them (or, someone who is willing to undertake this activity) with a means by which *they* can restore their system to it's "as delivered" state -- letting *them* recover whatever they can (and, making their LOSSES painfully visible!)

If that can be a turnkey process, it is more likely to be used than if someone with technical expertise is required to perform it. (i.e., a solution has to fit the *total* problem, not just the "technical" problem)

Reply to
Don Y

Clonezilla's "problem" is that it targets technically advanced users. E.g., having used it probably *hundreds* (literally) of times, I still have to think very carefully when selecting options ("Do I want to save or restore? Do I want to deal with the entire *disk* or just some 'partitions'?").

Likewise, being careful to select the *right* volume(s) to operate on, use as "partimag", etc.

Given the amount of potential downside risk to a screwup (user error), it really is a poorly designed piece of software. I surely don't want "students" to be able to shoot themselves in BOTH feet by misapplying a tool...

Reply to
Don Y

I did not have Win8 and they knew that. The "performance" was identical in Win2K and Win7 and all partitions in good condition (defragged and AV scanned). Mind you, only a few brave fools had Win8 then as it was in early beta.

Due to their crappy software and support, they earn zero credibility, and the software name should be labelled as deliberate false advertizing.

Reply to
Robert Baer

Well, i understand that; the solution is to write a script - which is another name for "program".

Reply to
Robert Baer

I have an ASRock Z77 Extreme 6 That I have been using with dual boot Windows 7 and Xubuntu 12.4 with no problems. I disabled the UEFI and had no problems loading the systems. Xubuntu is Ubuntu with xfce rather than the Unity user interface (xfce is more what I am use to).

Reply to
Dennis

Why not run Win 7 in Virtualbox? Then you can share files between Win 7 and Xbuntu 12.4. You can also make a separate vm for banking and virtually eliminate any risk of malware stealing your money.

I had no problems installing and running Ubuntu 12.04 or Linux Mint 15 on the Asrock. Both are UEFI-aware. However I cannot stand Unity, and Mint had so many problems I quickly gave up and went back to Ubuntu 10.04.

The Asrock Z77 Pro 4 will boot and run Ubuntu 10.04 that was installed on a Asus MV-AM motherboard. This is a pre-UEFI motherboard.

However, it will not install Ubuntu 10.04 on a hard drive using a live disk. It will not boot, even though UEFI is disabled.

The Asrock also turned out to be so buggy with 10.04 I gave up and went back to the Asus MV-AM, which is what I am using now.

JK

Reply to
John K

ntfsclone and partclone (which is what Clonezilla uses) are similar in function (some minor differences in implementation). I know partclone will handle other filesystems as well as NTFS (not ZFS, currently?). And, the default settings for Clonezilla "image splits" take into account the possibility that the "image partition" may exist on a FAT32 filesystem (e.g., don't try to create splits that are too large to be represented as "files" on that filesystem!).

I don't know how partclone/Clonezilla will handle (stored) images that span more than one volume. E.g., if the image is 10GB (5*2G) and doesn't fit on a single DVD. (my "big images" are stored on big external drives so this hasn't been a problem)

Reply to
Don Y

N.B. Clonezilla itself is a script.

There are a couple of problems with basing a "solution" on Clonezilla.

First, it boots a bloated linux kernel capable of running a full shell -- even though Clonezilla itself doesn't need most of those resources IN MY APPLICATION. E.g., no need for networking, it only uses a 640x480 display in TEXT mode, etc. On some of my machines, the boot process (to the Clonezilla "prompt") is as much as 90 seconds (that shouldn't be the case for any of the machines I'll be dealing with here; I just offer it to indicate how much cruft the kernel drags in).

Watching all the "console" messages scroll by will be intimidating to folks accustomed to a splash screen. And, I haven't looked at the implementation to know if there are any events that can cause a panic or if the boot process keeps trying even if is wrong. So, the user would be given instructions like: Wait for the Clonezilla splash screen. If it doesn't appear after XX seconds, call for help.

If I went the "roll my own" route, I would opt for a different "host OS" for the image restore tool.

Second, I suspect OS + even a small suite of apps will easily exceed the space available on the Clonezilla boot CD (even if I move it to a DVD). AFAICT, partclone won't allow the "splits" of the image file that it is trying to restore to reside on multiple volumes. I.e., if it finds the first split on the "image partition", it will expect to find the *last* split on that same partition! No way to "insert DVD 2 of 5", etc.

The question then becomes: how much time do I want to spend understanding someone else's tool vs. creating one that does what I need, directly?

Reply to
Don Y

OK - you hadn't said what the requirements, limitations and flexibilities were.

Fair enough - you are trying to /help/ the "customer", not convert them. Similarly, I am only trying to help you, not convert you. So if installing a particular OS is not an option for the end users, even if it makes the job easier for /you/, then you can't use that solution.

Be careful that the embarrassment of coming back a second time does not just stop them coming back a second time - people who quickly get malware once will quickly get it many more times. For such users, you really should consider evangelizing - but pick your own favourite OS if you don't want to copy mine!

The trouble with the "restore from DVD" solution is that it involves a great deal of loss for the user - people who are at a level of knowledge that you describe /will/ lose their personal data in this process. You can pretty much guarantee that even if the malware has not eaten their data, they will fail to copy it correctly before doing the re-install. You can also guarantee 100% that they will lose all software (including system updates) they have installed since the restore DVD was made - and you can also be sure that very few will make regular restore DVDs (and those that do, will store their malware on the newer restore DVDs).

It is a simple fact that for ignorant users (I don't mean that as an insult - everyone is ignorant until they have learned about a topic), you either have to provide a safe and reliable system, preferably locked down to limit risks, or someone has to provide support and help. That someone does not have to be /you/ - maybe the users can even get together and help each other.

I fully understand that you don't want to be an eternal free technical support for the end users. Maybe recovery DVDs are the best you can do with the resources you have and the requirements of the "customers" - but they can never be more than /part/ of a good maintenance and support solution.

Reply to
David Brown

It doesn't matter how *bad* I think THE SCHOOL SYSTEM'S CHOICE OF OS is... there's simply no way I am going to get them to change their minds as to what they expect their students to use. I'm sure lots of "interests" have had a say in that decision. I don't have kids in the school system so I've got no skin in that game -- and not anxious to *put* any skin in there, either!

Yup. If you don't learn from your first (or second or twenty-fifth) mistake, maybe you *can't* learn. But, *you* bear the cost of your ignorance.

E.g., here, I simply don't want to have to keep watching for all the latest security updates, etc. So, I don't let machines talk to the outside world. That's *my* solution. Other folks may wish to gamble and/or take other measures to minimize what they "expose".

I have learned from first-hand experience that if you provide a service to fix their mistakes, they will RELY on it. Even if you charge a fee to act as a deterrent -- in a perverse sense, they figure that they are now *paying* you (i.e., the non-profit) so you no longer have any VALID objections to their misuse.

A "repair" solution that can work is NOT to charge them anything. BUT, to sit on their machine for several weeks -- without making a "loaner" available for their use! And, return the machine with all their "personal files" *lost*.

However, this ties up staff doing mindless restores -- which take a really long time (even if you do several machines at once and leave them largely unattended). As staff have limited hours (donated time isn't infinite time!), that means some *other* student doesn't get a "new machine", or some other equipment donation gets refused because there aren't enough man-hours to make use of it, etc.

[Hint: these kids don't pick up this malware visiting "innocent" sites!]

I can't think of any other way to motivate them to be smart about

*how* they use the machines. I.e., *lose* the machine and you end up at the local public library -- where you *won't* be (allowed!) visiting any of those "non-innocent" sites!
Reply to
Don Y

Sorry, I meant that you could influence the choice of OS for your friends and neighbours. Getting the school to change systems would be more challenging!

If there is no internet connection, then the machines will be pretty safe (USB sticks and other media are still a possibility for malware, but much less risky).

However, a PC that is not connected to the internet these days is either a poor games console or an expensive doorstop. Maybe things are different where you live, but here a PC without internet would not be worth the money even if it is free.

I can see your problem, and I don't know any good way to solve the issue

- as I say, things seem to be different for you than for students over here.

Reply to
David Brown

If you don't need networking, or framebuffer, or audio, or serial ports... exclude those features when you compile the kernel.

They can be hidden.

if you exclude all the bits you don't need and then any failure will be critical if is wrong it's game over.

Not if it's a small set.

ntfsclone can read from standard input, thefore you can write your own script that prompts for media and emits the joined stream. tar can do that.

--
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Reply to
Jasen Betts
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Or, pick a "kernel"/OS that doesn't expect all that bloat!

OK. Then *add* something that removes the drapery (slash screen) when/if something goes wrong in the boot.

I don't think anything "MS" fits that description! :> I can

*easily* do that for one of my *BSD boxes -- even with a decent set of tools installed. But, something like Windows+Updates+Office would probably easily require two DVD's (or, dual layer plus some) [I can actually figure out what each of the machines here used at various points in their "build" process as my install logs include the number of "used blocks" reported by Clonezilla each time I built an image in the process.]

AFAICT, the "image" shouldn't care about the file system on the medium. I.e., it should be like a "hole-y" dd(1) image so something like:

... ... ...

As such, access to the raw device should be all I need - and a checksum to provide some assurance that what I'm pushing to the medium is intact (followed by a verify cycle)

Reply to
Don Y

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