OT: Disk "imaging" SW

E.g., Clonezilla can deal with the disk "as is" without requiring itself to be installed on that disk, under that OS, etc. The tool I seek should let me create images of "any" disk -- even those that have *no* OS!

Acronis True Image 2013. About $50. One machine gets the install, but the Recovery CD can be used to clone or image any number of other machines. Speed is about 1GByte/minute for older slow machines, to 5GBytes/sec for restore from USB 3.0 drives.

Unfortunately, recovery is not as simple as I would like. It asks a series of useless questions and offers no means to provide canned answers. Fortunately, everything is done with scripts so modifications are possble. However, I just hand people a step by step procedure to follow, which methinks is good enough.

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Don Y Inscribed thus:

Simply create a self booting installation CD/DVD aka Live Linux CD. Add a script to format the HD and then copy the image.

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This *looks* like it only works on Windows machines?

I.e., can I install it on a Windows machine. Then, pull the disk from a Linux machine. "Somehow" connect that disk to the Windows machine and use the tool to create an image of the Linux disk burning this onto a DVD(s). Then, carry that DVD over to the Linux machine with a BLANK disk installed, *boot* from that DVD and have the Linux image restored onto that blank disk? So, the *next* boot (with the DVD removed) allows me to have Linux "restored" on that machine?

It will do a block by block image copy to/from Linux. That means you have to do the restore a disk that's the same size or larger, and then use GParted to expand the partition to fill the drive. That's too much for basic users.

Instead of suggesting how it is to be used, could you describe what you're trying to accomplish? You can create the Recovery CD only on a Windoze machine if that's what you're asking. If you're distributing mixed multiboot operating system, I don't think this is the right tool.

Incidentally, you'll also have problems booting the CD on a Secure Boot UEFI machine.

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The same sort of issues are present in Clonezilla. If you know what you are doing, you *can* clone to a smaller disk. This is important because a given vendor's XXX capacity disk may be slightly

*smaller* than another XXX capacity disk. And, you don't find out about this until you are in the box of *needing* to restore to this "slightly smaller" disk, etc.

The way *I* use Clonezilla is:

- install some stuff on machine X under OS

- boot Clonezilla on machine X

- image the disk and/or selected partitions onto an external disk (most often USB though could also be over the wire)

- repeat

This leaves me with a set of images representing machine X with varying bits of stuff installed. I can then roll back to any of these snapshots at a future date by booting Clonezilla and restoring the appropriate image. When I reboot the native OS, the machine doesn't know that it's been brainwashed -- it just thinks some amount of calendar time has elapsed since it's last boot (in that configuration!)

E.g., for a windows machine, the snapshots are:

- 1 after installing Windows from CD/DVD

- 2 after installing the machine specific drivers

- 3 after downloading the most recent set of updates

- 4 after installing a core set of basic utilities

- 5 after installing the first set of applications

- 6 after installing the complete set of applications

So, I can restore image 3 to another machine having identical hardware.

I can restore image 4 to end up with a generic machine (not tailored to any particular set of applications)

I can restore image 6 to end up with the application-specific set of tools intended to run on this machine.

I.e., after image 6, any imaging of the disk is more like a "routine backup".

I would like to be able to give myself the same flexibility when building these machine for the nonprofit. In particular, depending on the OS, it could make building N "identical" machines as simple as building *one* and then just copying ("restoring") the image to the other N-1 machines!

[I can do this now with Clonezilla, etc.]

What I would like to be *able* to do is give the students (ultimate owners of the machines) the ability to restore the image that was present on the machine WHEN THEY RECEIVED IT.

Past experience has shown me that what ends up happening is someone fails to practice "safe computing" and brings a machine back complaining it is "broken". Of course, it's just loaded with malware. This invariably eats up the better part of a day to try to recover as much of "their files" as possible. Then, reload the OS and apps. Finally, transfer the salvaged "personal files" back onto the machine.

[Note that *keeping* images of each such machine can quickly become impractical! There are just too many going out the door!]

And, wait for the next time they screw things up!

[Of course, they are always in a state of panic because they need the machine to finish their homework, write a paper, etc.]

The other problem that comes up is disks die. If you are reinstalling from scratch (which takes *hours* per machine), then the new disk only has to be large enough for the OS plus apps.

If, instead, I can deliver a DVD(s) with each machine that allows the *student* to restore his own "image" (when his machine gets "infected"), then I can remove myself from this loop. And, for those cases where there has been a disk failure, the student could bring the machine in ALONG WITH THE IMAGE DVD and "someone" could restore it to a "new" disk -- even a slightly smaller one (as long as the "in use" portion of the disk fits on the new media)

As yet, I don't know how many *different* machine types I will have to deal with (obviously, I would like for them all to be Model XYZ to make my life as easy as possible!). Nor do I know how many different *licenses* I will have to deal with! Or, how willing they will be to upgrade the licenses to some "common/recent" point (e.g., a W7 license is $8 but lots of $8's add up to thousands of dollars! Plus "office" suite fees, etc.)

I want a solution that looks the same for all "students" so the nonprofit can have who just knows how to talk them through the "restore" procedure without having to figure out what model PC they have, what OS, etc.

I just ran into this problem. It is severe. I found the only motherboard that does not use UEFI is made by Supermicro. Phil Hobbs uses the server version. I checked and found the only version that is available from online companies like NCIX is the Supermicro C7H61:

Reg. Price: $177.67 CAD

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(Sorry for the wrap)

Nobody actually carries it. You have to place an order and wait for them to make it. Also, the H61 chipset is the bottom rung of chipsets made by Intel. It is used in $50 dollar motherboards made by Foxconn. The Supermicro is badly overpriced, but right now it seems to be the only option if you want to avoid wasting your money on the UEFI debacle.

I expect the board to be deliverd in the next few weeks. I will post any results that may be of interest to the group.

JK

Methinks you just presented the solution, and i quote: "I can always script Clonezilla and bend it towards the 'one click restore' model."

Garbage in, garbage out. I've had the same problem when the FAT was corrupted before cloning or when I had to deal with bad sectors. For what it's worth, I've been using it since about 2008 and have had minimal problems. Before that, it was really awful software.

Well yeah, tech support sucks.

Acronis 2013 build 5551 didn't work with Windoze 8 and didn't work at all with a UEFI boot. Built 6541 fixed those but has problems getting the boot sector correct. Run the boot repair from the Win 8 DVD and that will fix the boot.

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Be advised, that the name "Acronis True Image" gives a totally FALSE impression. I bought it. I used it in the clone mode. The resulting copy was almost trash. Partition designations (the byte that sez FAT, Extended, HPFS, etc) were altered to give unreadable (obscene?) partitions, drive labels got moved to unreadable (obscene?) places, directories got scrambled...i could go on but you get the picture. I complained, and they came up with the most absurd meaningless excuses, one of which was related to Win8 which at the time was in beta, and only after the third complaint did they give an "improved" version that was just as bad. In a three-month period, the only thing they came up with were more meaningless and un-related excuses. I tossed their crap and got my nickel back.

It is extremely hard to beat the FASTER and ACCURATE performance of Clonezilla or the Ultimate Boot CD.

Have you seen what Clonezilla looks like to the "computer illiterate"? Just watching the console messages scroll past in "microprint" would initimidate most folks. And, what if it fails to boot completely, etc.? Some Linux technobabble that would mean absolutely nothing to a young kid?

This, IMnsHO is why Linux keeps shooting itself in the foot as it tries to make inroads into the "mass market". Imagine if cars could only be driven by automechanics (because all the information was conveyed to the driver in "autospeak" and you had fine control over fuel mixture, spark advance, etc.

:<

I was hoping some turnkey solution already existed that was geared towards casual users. E.g., like the "restore" partition on many machines...

The machines I will be dealing with are typically 1-3 years old. They have usually reached the end of their "mainstream" service life (at places where hardware update cycles are in the 12-36 mo range) and are "wiped" clean and donated to nonprofits (like this one).

Thereafter, it's the nonprofit's problem to make them usable, again (hence where I come into this picture). A 12-24 mo old machine *may* be "ancient" to a large corporation. But, to a disadvantaged student, "for free", it's *gold*!

Nope. Some manufacturers have two version of their BIOS, a UEFI version and a non-UEFI version. Others have some means of disabling Secure Boot and enabling Legacy Boot. For example: etc...

For your Supermicro C7H61: On Pg 4-22, note the Boot Options menu, which offers: Built-in EFI Shell, [any detected boot device] and Disabled. If you select Disabled, it should return back to a normal BIOS boot and disable UEFI.

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Jeff Liebermann     jeffl@cruzio.com 
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Skype: JeffLiebermann     AE6KS    831-336-2558

Is it out of the question to ask users to press "Next..." a few times? You could give them a Linux Mint DVD - everything is free (no software vendors saying their licenses are not transferable and the student needs to buy new copies of Windows, etc.), practically no malware risks (thus eliminating a major support issue), and most of the software they will need is right there on the DVD.

This also means that upgrades can be done in exactly the same way - copy personal data onto a USB stick, insert the new DVD, click "Next..." a few times.

And if all this is too difficult for the students, it should not be difficult to find a Youtube video going through the process.

mvh.,

David

It sounds like you expect them to copy their files from a machine which doesn't work.

James

ntfsclone (linux command-line app) wrap whatever lightweight linux and scripts you want around that.

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All UEFI bios are supposed to have a means to disable it and use the old version. In the case of the Asus P8H77-I and Asrock Z77 Pro4, it does not work.

The Asus simply will not load a non-UEFI boot disk. The Asrock has the following problems:

Defective AsRock Motherboard

1. It often has random system crashes to a black screen. This causes loss of all the work I have done to that point.
2. It often repeats last key that was pressed all by itself. This is a disaster when you are editing files or switching from one window to the next to purchase items online. I can often tell when it is going to start doing it. If I press a key and nothing happens, then I press it again, it will start giving multiple keypresses even though the key is no longer being pressed. My keyboard cannot do this. There is nothing wrong with the keyboard. It works fine on other computers. This is a system problem with the Asrock.
3. The Asrock will boot Ubuntu 10.04 if it was installed by another pre-UEFI computer, but it will not boot if it installed the software on a hard disk.
4. Filesystem errors - Windows boots to safe mode and does a chkdsk by itself. It goes too fast to see what files are corrupted and there is no log so I don't know which files I am losing.
5. It often claims a file is in use when it is not being used anywhere. This makes it impossible to update or move it.
6. For some unknown reason, the system does not like my editor. It terminates the process whenever it can so I have to reload the editor and start over.
7. My files are getting corrupted due to cross-linked clusters when the system crashes. I have seen this often on Win98 with a FAT32 filesystem but never on a NTFS file system. It is a catastrophe.
8. The system is unusable due to file corruption. I don't dare backup anything since I don't know which files ones are corrupted.

These are system problems in the Asrock. I ran MemTest86 for three solid passes with zero errors. There is nothing wrong with the memory.

I removed the hard disk from the Asrock and installed it in a ASUS MV-AM pre-UEFI motherboard and ran it. Absolutely no changes were required, just boot and go.

It runs perfectly with none of these problems.

The Supermicro EFI bios is completely different from the Microsoft UEFI bios.

The Microsoft UEFI bios requires a mouse and appears to be completely new code. This means it probably contains many bugs since the UEFI specification is so complex and hard to follow. It may be difficult to separate the non-UEFI code from the rest and some fragments may remain. In my case, neither UEFI motherboard worked even though the UEFI code was disabled.

The UEFI bios also has severe usability problems.

1. The mouse sensitivity is way too high. It is difficult to put the pointer on a link and select it. You have an excellent chance of getting the wrong link or selecting the wrong parameter. There is no way to adjust the sensitivity.

1. You may have a window open and have selected a desired option. If you now sweep the mouse to the Exit link, you may accidentally sweep past the option window. This will cause the option to change to whatever was visible as the mouse passed. It is completely unexpected and hard to notice since you are trying to get the mouse to select the Exit link. You now have the wrong parameter selected when you boot. This can cause grief trying to figure what went wrong.

The Supermicro EFI bios is completely different. It is the plain old ascii AMI bios. You cannot use a mouse.

I am hoping and praying this means the EFI portion was simply tacked on and can be completely disabled.

If not, it means Windows XP will surely disappear in a few years as the motherboards and hard disks die and must be replaced.

I'm sure Microsoft knows this and anticipates it with glee.

JK

Throw it away!

Chkdsk logs should be kept in the system management logs.

Explorer.exe does that a lot, especially for directory handles. You can use Process Explorer (procexp) to find and kill the open handles.

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I have already lost over $140 on the Asus motherboard. Unfortunately I kept it past the 30 day limit imposed by Newegg for returns for reimbursement so the money is lost. The only use I have found for it is a place to dock the memory and cpu while I am waiting delivery on a new motherboard.

The Asrock appeared to function when I first got it, so I ordered another motherboard, another Intel Core I3 2120 cpu, Kingston DDR3 memory, a Philips monitor, a new Toshiba CDROM burner, two Seasonic power supplies and a Dynacore cpu cooler. Approximately $700 worth of product - too much to throw away.

The defects in the Asrock did not show up immediately, but appeared over a week or two. Some of the problems did not appear until I tried installing Ubuntu 10.04 on the motherboard. It did not work. I got some errors on the CDROM burner and bought a Sony instead. It did not work either.

The crashes, keyboard problems, file errors and other behavior were completely random. The first time they happened I said that's wierd. I haven't seen that before. It was when they started repeating that I became concerned. Eventually, it became clear there was something seriously wrong with the Asrock motherboard and I sent everything back to Newegg. I am still fighting them over shipping charges. They agreed to reimburse all but about $50, and I plan on getting that also.

The UEFI bios has cost me a great deal of time wasted. I believe it is a deliberate trap set by Microsoft. They require it for Windows 8, and the vendors have no alternative but to rewrite the bios. There is a requirement to have the option to disable UEFI, but there is no requirement that it work.

Now that the pc market is declining, vendors are struggling to find new sources of revenue. Asus is discussing a possible merger with Acer. Please see

and

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shih,24330.html"

(Sorry for the wrap)

None of the main vendors will talk about problems with Linux. They simply say it is not mainstream and they do not support it.

They will also ignore problems with Win XP. It will lose updates next spring, so there is no reason to put any effort into maintaining it. They have no manpower, money or any reason to test the non-UEFI bios and fix any bugs. They have pinned their hopes on Win 8, and it is not working.

Nobody I know is interested in Win 8. The motherboard vendors are in serious trouble and they know it. They will have little interest in fixing any non-UEFI problems.

So Microsoft in one fell swoop has destroyed Win XP, and made it next to impossible to keep it running even in Virtualbox.

And they have left the vendors and the rest of us holding the bag for Win

2. JK