Opinions wanted on career-limiting moves (<g>)

IMHO, once one is making enough for the necessities and an occasional toy (A new devkit!) then the only thing that really counts is whether one can look forward to starting the day and enjoy doing "fun stuff" for each individual definition of fun.

That said, back before I was able to escape resume' reviews and hiring decisions, an anonymous somebody coming out of Marketing *as such* probably wouldn't have made the cut for a first interview into an engineering position. OTOH, an "Product Line Manager" (or (better?) a "Product Line Engineering Manager") probably would make the cut for an appropriate senior level position.

It's all in how you spin it... and hey, that's Marketing's specialty, isn't it? '-)

Yeeeessss... Well, therein lies a long (and decidedly non-public) conversation.

I'm really not sure that I'd be looking for what would normally be called a "senior level" position. Actually I have an ideal destination in mind, but the path towards it seems to have kinked a bit.

Heh. Yes, I can bullshit with the best of them, and with a straight face to boot.

That product's housing isn't "beige and butt-ugly no matter where you stick it", it's "neutrally colored and rugged, for unobtrusive installation in a wide variety of environments"!

Don't say "the user has to call tech support every time they want to use this feature", say "Our training and realtime support resources are available to help your front-line staff climb the learning curve".

well, just try. if it fails, you can get back to HW-only work, right ? if it succeeds, you'll have something else on your resume.

yg

that's a myth, an illusion that a lot of people would like to be true...

when you retire, you have accumulated so many "'i'd love to do this and that and..." that you have no time either.

Not speaking for myself, but I have observed people around me, so now I take time AND do stuff my way. I know that retirement is just a fool's dream, at least for me, because if I ever get 70 y old, I will still be as technofanatic as today (if not more) so if I still hack stuff, why not do it for money too ?

yg

I don't think I would want that position unless it came with the authority to say: "Engineering can't get a good working prototype of that project ready for the July XYZ Dog and Pony Show. It will have to debut at a later show."

Will you be able to use your engineering skills to keep Marketing honest? Perhaps amongst the dinosaurs, BigCorp is a brontosaurus and not a velociraptor.

IMHO, the escalator moves much more quickly in small companies----but it usually doesn't go as high and is subject to frequent breakdown. I got off that escalator at age 50 at a mezzanine with a nice view and have been happy and occasionally well-paid for the last decade.

There's no such thing as free time while you are still working. There are only opportunity costs! Free time is what you get after you retire!

You could end up like a former HP engineer that I met recently. After many years with that BigCorp, he ended up as a research assistant at the local university. I suspect a pay cut ensued, but he's working for a professor that gets grants for 5-year research projects, and that's got to be a big plus.

There must be something I could say about the dark side---but it's too early in the morning for my Darth Vader voice.

Mark Borgerson

I believe that the outcome will depend on what you achieve (and how you word it). If you say "I managed the successful introduction of products G and H to the market, which boosted our company", you can still spin the phrase for the audience, give technical details (or see that you backed the technicians by defending their PoV) or marketspeech (give percent of income, months of spec-to-delivery etc.)

There used to be a time when the "commercial guys" was often my choice target when I wanted to pick on someone on a trade show, but now some of my ex-colleagues have this role now, and I respect them more...

So it depends on what you want to achieve, particularly in the light of your long-term plans.

keep us informed :-) yg

sure, go forward. what could you lose, except an opportunity ? If you don't try, you'll regret later, because you won't know when the next opportunity will show up and if it will be better.

Now, if you have an 'agenda', make sure that the corp understands it in a way that pleases it. Say that you want to develop products, or whatever you can spin, so they won't be afraid and tied you to the closest ejection seat.

yg

At most BigCorps in the individual contributor space, there is no authority - merely a boundary condition between deniability and culpability. In this industry it is routinely a year or more between dog and pony show and actual sales of a product, so a carefully staged "don't press the blue button in front of customers" demo isn't a terribly scary thing to me.

BigCorp is neither brontosaurus (sluggish, putatively pleasant- tempered herbivore) nor velociraptor (agile, ill-tempered predator). It is entirely carnivorous, often decerebrate and occasionally cannibalistic, but slow-moving with very long delays in its sensory and motor networks. Some biological analog is probably to be found amongst invertebrates, but I can't think of one off-hand.

As for keeping Engineering honest, I suspect the goal is to have a kind of quisling, who will perhaps be harder to lie to than the current liaison point.

Having been on the SmallCo escalator twice, I'm well aware of this :) I do have a long-term plan in mind but the execution has reached a bit of a tricky phase.

Since I won't be retiring until I die (and maybe not even then), I'm defining free time as "time I am neither at my work desk, nor studying for school commitments".

That does sound like fun :)

That's kinda what I'm asking. I am wondering if a year or whatever in marketing will look, on an engineer's resume, much like a couple of years in jail for a felony.

On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:39:34 -0700, larwe wibbled:

Having read the other replies, I'm inclined to suggest that you ask for the title to be amended to Product Engineering Manager or somesuch.

You can try marketing to see if that path suits you but you can also plausibly deny it later if needs be.

Future companies don't usually delve into the inner organsiation of your last job, so if they take "Product Engineering Manager" at face value, then I can't see it doing anything but good for your CV.

Maybe, Maybe not. That's the question: will he be able to get back into a design job after having left design for marketing? Or will a stint in marketing make it harder to get the next job in design?

IMO, a candidate for a design job who has spent the last few years in marketing will be at a disadvantage when compared to somebody who spent the last few years in design. OTOH, if you want to move into upper management instead of back into design, a more diverse background probably helps.

But will it be something _good_ on his resume? Will it help or hurt if he decides he wants to get back into design?

Exactly so. The long and short of it is that whatever path I pick for the short term, the road ahead ends at a T-junction not far ahead. I'm trying to decide if the choice I mentioned in the OP is putting a big gate across one of the branches of that junction.

That's a good idea. Since the posting hasn't been publicized yet, I don't know what they are officially calling it - I also don't know what the menu of options in BigCorp's title buffet contains. But I can certainly bring it up.

Isn't that the principle behind that TV show with the briefcases full of money, where you get to take some certain payout or pick to open a briefcase of your choice :)

That groundwork is already laid. The truth, without any agenda (besides "not wanting to be bored") is that I have a lot of skills that are not being used at all where I am - I estimated recently to senior management that I'm putting out about 20% of what I could be doing, not to mention that I'm never called upon to operate outside my comfort zone. Those issues can't be fixed in the context of BigCorp's engineering department.

The reason for my thread posting is that I wanted a feel for how poisonous (if at all) other engineers think this will be on my resume.

IMHO, things like the small corp vs. big corp thing depends on how you spin yourself at the interview. Want to work for a small company? Put an "objectives" line on your resume that puts a diplomatic spin on "I'd like to be able to apply myself and actually get results for once!". Then follow that up in the interview -- talk about how you look forward to being a self-starter, with the ability to apply yourself and see results without getting wound up in red tape. Yes, there's a barrier, but I don't think it's insurmountable.

I've worked at BigCorp, and at TeenyCorp -- TeenyCorp only has ten engineers working for it, you may have less authority running engineering there than you do as an engineering pion at a BigCorp that lets you push drafters and technicians around.

What do you want to do with your career? The marketing gig may be the perfect thing if you want to move into engineering management when you get done with the Marketing thing -- a CEO who came through Marketing is going to trust you a lot more for an engineering VP than some guy whose whole experience base has been pushing bits and electrons around. The Marketing gig will prove (or disprove) that you can work with other disciplines (no matter how ironic you may find the use of "marketing" and "discipline" in the same sentence).

OTOH, it could be a barrier to "real" design work later -- keeping up the consulting and book-writing will help you there. And here again, clever resume writing (and HR-bypassing) will help when the time comes to get back into engineering.

So if you're shooting for "more of the same but bigger" then it's probably a neutral or a bad move. If you're aiming at the top of the mountain, then it's probably good.

ut

Very true - my comment was really reflecting the fact that I went on a few practice interviews over the years, to keep my interview skills current if nothing else, and I've found an *intense* hostility at Tinycorps (especially startups) towards Bigcorp people. Odd, really, since many of the people in question made their seed money working at Bigcorps, but still, there you have it. I also have the impression that many Tinycorps actively hate my present employer :)

After that experience I decided to maintain two completely different versions of my resume; one version for Bigcorp eyes that talks about ISO, CMMI, six sigma, million-unit production and managing projects across three continents, and another version for Tinycorpers that talks exclusively about actual stuff I've written and built.

I really can't believe the world needs another middle manager of any flavor.

See, the real issue here is that I'm between a rock and a hard place; staying still for too long is resume poison (5 years was my deadline, and I'm coming up to 6 - yes the market is bad, but that's really no excuse). But making an upwards move in the wrong direction isn't necessarily better, as this thread illustrates.

On the other hand, there simply isn't room for an upwards engineering move where I am now - we're already very top-heavy (plus, unwilling to hire entry-level people to fill any vacuum at the bottom). So my choices are:

a) look for a lateral or diagonal-up move to an engineering position elsewhere (actively doing this, but it's slow going; the zone I'm targeting is on the other side of the continent, competition is stiffer out there, and I don't have contacts). Plus side: interesting work and relocation to an area with far greater engineering job density. Minus side: extremely difficult to make it happen.

b) take this lateral move into a track that historically promotes energetic people [which I am] very quickly, but which diverges from my core experience. Plus side: I'll immediately be pulled out of my comfort zone into an environment where I'll be learning new things and improving skills, no more same-old same-old. Also, BigCorp would finance an MBA for me in that department. Minus side: If I'm not rapidly and immensely successful, I will be dumped like yesterday's garbage and might be unemployable at that point :)

c) jog in place for another year and see if things improve. Plus side: safe. Minus side: Boring, plus politically hard now that I've had to disclose to management that I'm willing to accept this offer.

d) give up and live off the land.

HR bypassing is definitely an important trick. I haven't penetrated the secret there. To date through my entire life, with *one* exception (my first job), I've gotten all my employment leads and the best interviews through principals or recruiters calling me, not me actively seeking opportunities. I guess step one for me when I'm looking for a new job should be "Have a lucky day".

Good stuff to think about in this response; thanks.

I feel so comfortable with my independence that I forgot that drawback of working with such employers. :-)

My opinion is not that it woud be poisonous, if you show that you keep at least 50% of your time doing "engineering". I'm a bit optimistic, sure, I spend less than 5% of my actual time with a soldering iron. But don't lose the "down to earth" basics.

For the rest, do whatever you can, it's much better than staying screwed to your seat. Not everybody is capable of staying on his bench for life.

yg

Good luck whatever you do. Remember, too, that you can take the consulting full time; even if it's not for you* it makes a good resume wash for a lot of things.

• If you get laid off unexpectedly and think "house payment" it's not for you. If you think "Skiing!!" then it is.

I don't think I'd even get to the "house payment" thought - I'd be too busy looking for rope and a sturdy tree limb...