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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 07:10:28 +1100, Chris Baird

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Um, not.  That is the GUI/DE that eats all that RAM.  The actual
functionality is maybe 5 to 10 % of that.  Basic running interactively,
with a file system was done in 16 K on a 6502.  You have heard of
bloatware.
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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 > Um, not. That is the GUI/DE that eats all that RAM. The actual
 > functionality is maybe 5 to 10 % of that.

Are you using the Hollywood edition of C++ with Gibson extensions
enabled? (Usually installed under the name 'Java'.)

Memory usage while compiling KDE4 C++ sources from the command line:

  PID USERNAME PRI NICE   SIZE   RES STATE      TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
 1333 root      25    0   332M  316M CPU/0      0:17 96.03% 57.03% cc1plus
 1351 root      85    0    48M   32M pager_/4   0:00  2.47%  1.46% as

316MB in use by the compiler. C++ is Peeeg. And then there's Java, which
is Mrs Peeeeg after 8 years of marriage..

And it was said this proposed supercheap 64MB RAM RaspberryPi killer
would run Android and its Java systems. Uh, you need at least 768MB of
RAM for Android to be usable at all.

--
C,,

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 10:42:25 +1100, Chris Baird

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The toolchain were not on the RPi. It was just the target.  Just the same
your point has been made, those toolchains take gigs.

?-)

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
joseph snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net says...
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So to do any programming of the RPi,  you still need a PC with Linux
either native or in a virtual machine.  Of course the same is true of
any other low-cost system.

It does seem disingenuous to promote the idea that you could do
significant hardware and  C software development with the RPi and just
a keyboard, monitor and mouse.  You really need a PC and a second
keyboard, monitor and mouse unless you plan to switch a lot of cables
when you want to test your software.


Mark Borgerson


Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Compiling KDE is a pretty extreme example. I find it rather disingenuous to
dismiss the device as unfit for any purpose just because it isn't everything
for everyone, especially when the complaints are about things that weren't
design goals in the first place.

-a

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Very good point!!

By the way, who did set the design goals in the first place ?

Was anyone here on the committee to set the design specs ??


Anyone ??????

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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That would be faster but you don't need an extra keyboard and monitor.
You can work remote from a Linux system. Mount the filesystem of the
RP using fuse and have the RP use the Linux system as X server for
output.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?


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nah, if the PC is linux just run an X server (if this term is
unfamiliar,  look it up, it's probably not what you think) on
the RPI and leave everything plugged into it.

or get a KVM switch. or just do non-graphical apps....

If it's windows (I know of people who run GCC on windows) you could
perhaps use rdesktop or VNC instead.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

---

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?

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Better use Xming if you want to use X 'remotely'. Works like a charm
and its pretty cheap.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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I use Cygwin for the X server and Putty for the serial client.  Works
great.  I even run my accounting system remotely over SSH when I'm away.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
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Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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You are complaining about high memory requirements when compiling KDE4?
  Have you any concept about how big KDE4 is?  KDE4 is a marvellous
desktop environment, if you like that sort of thing - but it is huge.
It is too big to run on such devices, never mind compile.

Compiling software is typically more demanding (in memory, disk space,
and often cpu capacity) than running it.  But for most uses, you don't
compile system software or standard applications - you get them as
binaries with the distribution.

The software compiled on a system like this is mostly small programs -
such as those written by the user themselves - and thus they take small
amounts of memory to compile.


Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
 > You are complaining about high memory requirements when compiling
 > KDE4? Have you any concept about how big KDE4 is? KDE4 is a
 > marvellous desktop environment, if you like that sort of thing - but
 > it is huge. It is too big to run on such devices, never mind compile.

The RSS stats I posted where from compiling one C++ file. It should've
been the point that compiling a C++ program can need a significant
amount of real RAM-- far more than the 64MB in the ChokoPi that
Dontronics proposes selling.

 >> So to do any programming of the RPi, you still need a PC with Linux
 >> either native or in a virtual machine.

False. Both models of the RPi will have 256MB, which is more than enough
to do self-hosting software builds (for everything but large C++
projects, and Java environments..)

--
Chris

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
There must be some smaller C/C++ compilers left in the world besides
just gcc, right?  I mean, there were C (not C++) compilers back in the
days of 8-bit PCs with 64kB of memory, and while, yeah, they weren't as
fancy as the ones we have today, they did work and produced
reasonably-sized executables that ran a lot faster than BASIC.

I've got to believe that a decent C compiler that requires no more 1MB
while compiling reasonably-sized programs would be entirely viable.

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
 > I mean, there were C (not C++) compilers back in the days of 8-bit
 > PCs with 64kB of memory, and while, yeah, they weren't as fancy as
 > the ones we have today, they did work and produced reasonably-sized
 > executables that ran a lot faster than BASIC.

BDC C, Mix-C (that I actually have the disks for within an arm's reach..)

 > I've got to believe that a decent C compiler that requires no more
 > 1MB while compiling reasonably-sized programs would be entirely
 > viable.

A 'decent C compiler' would need to do ANSI C at the minimum--
structures, floating point, actual optimization, and really in this day
and age, have the feature-sets that everyone needs... and you end up
with another GCC (as the likes of LLVM, pcc, tcc, discovered.)
And it would need ARM platform support...

Also, don't forget the RPi has significant video capabilities as well,
in line with its "21st Century Home Microcomputer" charter. (What made
the Apple][, CBM64, and Spectrums popular..?) Headless embedded boards
like the Choko/OLinuXino and BeagleBone are forgetting that when they
push themselves as an RPi 'alternative'.

--
Chris

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:44:44 +1100, Chris Baird

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Well, it seems you have finally come to your point.  On the other hand =
the
RPi folks are targeting a bit different market segment than the others.
Maybe comparison in not appropriate, and may never be.  Then again the
others are shipping, so far the RPi is still promises and samples.

?-)

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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Oh yeah, Mix C!  I wrote an 8048 assembler and various other tools in it...

It seemed pretty good at the time (and of course was much, much cheaper
than, e.g., Borland or Microsoft C).  ...and it doesn't seem like C code
today is that much different -- at least not the stuff I write for
microcontrollers: I toss around more "const" keywords, but that's about it.

Looks like they're still around: http://www.mixsoftware.com/ .

---Joel

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:44:44 +1100) it happened Chris Baird

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False pretence, if it runs X thne it runs at a fixed framerate
and will drop frames on video.
Apple uses that chip in a different way I may hope.


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Wrong, you should have mentioned Amiga, that one actually had genlock IIRC.
The rest not.
Apple?
Whats apple, did not Adam and Eve start out with an Apple too?

;-)



Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
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It did although I believe it was stuck at a ~15.75kHz line rate.  I.e.,
the locking was meant to support the small variations in line rate that
you'd get coming out of video recorders or cheap cameras, but it didn't
support markedly different frame rates.

Why is X limited to a fixed frame-rate, though?  It seems like having an
API to deal with an adjustable frame-rate would be a pretty
straightforward addition?

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On a sunny day (Tue, 13 Mar 2012 09:08:29 -0700) it happened Joel Koltner

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It can be fixed, I gave the link some time ago,
  http://linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-July/017347.html

Better would be to let the chip handle it,
There are so many frame rates and formats these days,
having solutions and modelines for the X server for each one
would be problematic,
Running mplayer or xine in X and having it doing resizing deinterlacing
perhaps and aspect correction just to name a few things, but then playing
50 Hz movies on a 60 Hz system does NOT make a real media player.
Maybe people got used to it, just like they got used
to low bitrate mp3, and highly compressed video....
Technology moving backwards.

Re: OLinuXino, a serious Rasberry Pi competitor?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 19:02:20 GMT, Jan Panteltje

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I am not quite sure what you are going on about here.  Handbrake (thanks
to underlying tools) can convert between the two.  With enough processor
power it can do it at real time and faster rates.  It hurts S/N a bit, =
but
where were you in the meantime?

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