Nyquist Didn't Say That

Hi Tim, Writing about the effects of "periodic sampling" is an interesting and educational thing to do.

My guess is that you'll have to address the controversial notion of "negative frequency", as well as why it is valid to show spectral replications (spaced Fs hertz apart) when we draw a freq-domain picture of the spectrum of a discrete (digital) signal.

One interesting aspect of periodic sampling is that it's easy to misinterpret the results of software modeling of the process of periodic sampling.

That's (I think) what happened when J. L. Smith wrote his "Breaking the Nyquist Barrier" in the July 1995 issue of the IEEE Sig. Processing magazine. I believe Smith misunderstood his software-generated plots when he wrote his embarrassing article. Smith claimed that he could violate the Nyquist Theorem and not lose any information (and avoid any ambiguous information) regarding some time domain signal. Smith's article resulted in a flurry of "Letters To the Editor" that debunked the article (See the Nov. 1995, Jan. 1996, and the May 1996 issues for examples of the letters.) How embarrassing that must have been for both Smith, and the Editors of the magazine who should have known better.

Another very "misguided" sampling article was "Apply Fundamentals To Avoid Surprises With Sampled Systems" written by Gerard Fonte and printed in the June 24th 1993 issue of EDN magazine. Fonte also claimed that you could violate Nyquist and not lose any information. Almost every paragraph of that article contains misconceptions and ambiguities regarding the Nyquist sampling theorem. It's truly a "ghastly" article --- and it also caused a deluge of "Letters To the Editor" pointing out all the errors in the article. (See page 25 of the Sept. 30th 1993 issue of the EDN magazine for example.)

I thought after all the criticism that Fonte received regarding his 1993 EDN that we'd heard the last from Mr. Fonte. Not so. He wrote another titled "Breaking Nyquist" in the October 1998 issue of the Circuit Cellar magazine. Again he claimed that the Nyquist sampling theorem is not valid and that it can be "broken" without causing "problems". Using vague, ambiguous, undefined terminology, Fonte again claimed that he can tell the difference between an Fo (F sub zero) discrete spectral component of an analog sinewave whose Fo frequency was less than Fs/2 and an Fo discrete spectral component of an aliased analog sinewave whose frequency was greater than Fs/2. In other words, he claims that "aliasing" (violating Nyquist) does NOT cause spectral ambiguity in the frequency domain. I can hardly wait for Fonte's next article.

(I'm not being hateful here...Fonte's probably a nice guy whom his family loves.)

My guess is, again, Fonte is using software to model the process of periodic sampling, and the signal he is "sampling" is a pure sinewave. Such modeling is very risky in my opinion because it's easy for a beginner in the field of DSP to misinterpret/misunderstand the results of such modeling.

Concerning sampling, Bonnie Baker wrote an article titled "Turning Nyquist Upside Down by Undersampling" in the May 12th 2005 issue of EDN magazine. The article discusses bandpass sampling. However, I think the article's title is unfortunate because bandpass sampling does NOT "turn Nyquist upside down"

---bandpass sampling is included in the Nyquist Sampling Theorem.

I tell the students in my DSP class that, "Periodic Sampling is one of the most misunderstood topics in DSP." I think I'm justified in making that claim.

Hey Tim, I think in any dissertation on "sampling" it would be a good idea to discuss bandpass sampling. Bandpass sampling is not only an interesting topic, but it's a very practical topic in these days of digital communications. (Just my two cents.)

See Ya', [-Rick-]

Reply to
Rick Lyons
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(snipped)

Hi, I just finished posting a long rant about sampling articles written by Gerard Fonte.

I just noticed (on the web) that the San Fernando Valley Engineers' Council Inc. has awarded Gerard Fonte an "Outstanding Engineering Achievement Merit Award" for 2006.

See:

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[-Rick-]
Reply to
Rick Lyons

Another issue, Isnt it important to always keep into mind what the recustruction filter is?

Lets consider this situation. I have an output signal from a ZOH. I want to sample it again and reconstruct it back. Now i think i need only one sample per ZOH symbol. Why? Cos my reconstruction filter can construct my signal exactly from one sample. Certainly i am not satisfying Nyquist in this case. Or maybe i have not been sleeping to well :o)

Jerry Av>

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Reply to
mobi

What is what happens? Do you actually know what happens if you actually try this in a real world context? Set up a speaker generating the Fs/2 signal. Set up a microphone and and ADC to record the sound at Fs. Are you claiming that you can adjust the sampling phase to produce a digital recording of either full scale or zero? That's what in theory should happen - right? But can you do that in real life?

-jim

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Reply to
jim

Rick Lyons wrote: [...]

And complex sampling. You must include that, otherwise people won't understand the solid unshakeable reality of negative frequencies. :-)

Regards, Steve

Reply to
Steve Underwood

It has been my experience with local engineers' groups that the people who get awards are the ones who show up regularly.

Reply to
Richard Henry

Of course you can lock the sampler to the sampled waveform or one of its harmonics. Google for "PLL".

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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Reply to
Jerry Avins

_______________________________________________________________________ Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.

-- Jerry

Oh, yes: please don't top post. It makes sequence hard to follow.

implications of the sampling theorem needs broadening. pair, or, as in your example, magnitude and derivative. Your view of the cycle. They can be individual samples, they can be a real/quadrature The sampling theorem requires at least two pieces of information per that the derivative is zero at the instant that the sample is taken. case, that its derivative is zero /almost everywhere/. In particular, You are taking advantage of additional knowledge of the signal; in this

Reply to
Jerry Avins

That again? I can show you the trig that explicates "complex" sampling without resort to negative frequencies, but so what? :-)

I think a generalization needs to be hammered home. *Any* two independent measurements will do. Value and derivative, for example, as I mentioned by way of explaining why only one sample per cycle is needed to reconstruct the output of a zero-order hold.

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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Reply to
Jerry Avins

-- snip --

Enough people have mentioned this that I'm going to have to give it serious consideration, but I think I may just point out the existence of bandpass sampling (and complex sampling) then write a follow-on article.

I certainly agree with your statement about the sampling process being so often misunderstood. I think this is because sampling seems so simple, yet there is a ton of unintuitive results flowing just below the surface.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google?  See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Reply to
Tim Wescott

If the signal constellation has N different phases, then you will have to multiply the phase error by N in order to suppress the influence of the data. The simplest example of that is the squaring Costas loop for BPSK. Any kind of non data-aided PLL will have to do this multiplication of phase. It is typical for modems that the carrier PLL operates once when the current symbol is strobed. Thus if the carrier offset is higher then +/- Baudrate/(2*N), the PLL will not lock properly.

It is not always possible, especially if the carrier is RF and if the incoming SNR is low.

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

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Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

I can google PLL, but I wasn't aware that this extra timing circuitry that you are belatedly introducing to the discussion was included in the theory being discussed. Just exactly how does it fit? You already have a switch on the microphone you could just switch it off if you are going to resort to introducing a phony solution - why would you need to go to all the trouble of a PLL?

-jim

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Reply to
jim

You introduced what you claimed was a practical difficulty of phase lock in the real world into a theoretical discussion about sampling at a fixed phase offset. I pointed out one practical way to overcome the perceived difficulty. If you knew it all along, what was your cavil about?

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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Reply to
Jerry Avins

Not all signals are periodic waveforms.

Reply to
Richard Henry

I didn't introduce anything. A question of fact was asked "What would happen?" - someone else responded incorrectly - I responded to that response. You snipped all that and now accuse me of introducing the question.

If you are going to trigger the sample timing to twice the highest frequency component, then you should have no trouble measuring the amplitude of that frequency component. So apparently you are now saying that those who say you need to sample at more than twice the rate are completely wrong, since there is a practical way to overcome the perceived difficulty.

-jim

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Reply to
jim

My mother took a gym class once (this would have been in the early '60s) where something like 20% of the exam score was for putting your name on the paper... she purposely chose to not do as a form of protest. :-)

Where I used to work, rumor had it that the main reason a trade rag had just given our device a "widget of the year" award was due to marketing commiting to a high dollar advertising campaign with said trade rag. Hmm... (Those of us in engineering who knew how, uh... lackluster... the widget's performance was knew it could have never won on its technical merits.)

Reply to
Joel Kolstad

I apparently misunderstood the thrust of your message, quoted in full here:

Robert Baer wrote: > >

What is what happens? Do you actually know what happens if you actually try this in a real world context? Set up a speaker generating the Fs/2 signal. Set up a microphone and and ADC to record the sound at Fs. Are you claiming that you can adjust the sampling phase to produce a digital recording of either full scale or zero? That's what in theory should happen - right? But can you do that in real life?

-jim

If you derive the speaker excitation from the ADC clock, there is no difficulty maintaining whatever phase relation you decide upon. What did I not understand? What was the incorrect response you addressed?

I don't get it. What have I written that makes it seem that I believe the amplitude of a component f can be determined by sampling at 2f? We both know it can't be done, and why.

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Reply to
Jerry Avins

We are evidently dealing with a periodic waveform in a discussion of sampling at constant phase. Why drag in a non sequitur?

Jerry

--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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Reply to
Jerry Avins

Rick Lyons wrote: ...

are any of these online?

Rick, i fear that similar stuff is being done in the Wikipedia article. this guy (whose name is very similar to yours and claims to have Alan Oppenheim and Ron Schafer as friends) would say to you that "the converse of the Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem is not true", meaning that there are cases where frequency components at or above the Nyquist frequence can be validly reconstructed under some circumstances. i think he's talking about bandpass sampling.

Anyway, Wikipedia is so selective in the qualifications of editors, i am not sure how this experiment will turn out. sometimes very well written articles get "improved" by some editor that comes in who knows something about the topic (a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing) but makes edits that interrupt the flow of concept of the older version. there is no guarantee that the articles will improve in time. sometimes they get worse.

r b-j

Reply to
robert bristow-johnson

It certainly can be done if your sampling points are locked to the signal. As usual your arguments consist of having you cake and eating it too.

-jim

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Reply to
jim

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