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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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I don't disagree with some of your statements. The SDCC is in it's early
stages of development. therefore it is really only suitable for hobby
use.

The part is question is the LPC932 with 8K code space. Given the
efficiency of the Keil compiler compared to the SDCC you will probably
be able to get a larger program in to the part with the 4K limited Keil
than the SDCC.  This is because the Keil does some very good
optimisation both in the compiler and the linker.

The support for the Keil is equally responsive.

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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
Neil Cherry threw some tea leaves on the floor

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There isn't anything *wrong* with SDCC, it has it's advantages and
disadvantages like anything else :)

A blanket "DO  NOT use the SDCC compiler" is definitely advice worth
ignoring because in many situations SDCC is superior to commercial
applications, and cost is one of them.

The fact that Keil does not run under Linux/*Bsd is another.

You have the source code with SDCC, and in some cases this is a huge
benefit.

SDCC will always be available, and for Free, how many people have been
burned when closed source products are no longer available as a result
of a takeover etc ?

It's a complex issue, and I'm sure that products like Keil are fine,
however it's different horses for courses and one product doesn't fit
all.

As I said in another post, a friend wrote some test code to power a
2x16 line LCD recently. He used SDCC and the At89C2051 and it worked
fine, he had no problems.

I have some screen pics of SDCC in action at :-
http://milkstone.d2.net.au/embedded.html

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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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Any technical reasons?

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Only if you are a compiler writer. Not the same thing as a programmer.

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This is not guaranteed, neither are bug fixes.  

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Likewise with free products. BTW any news on SCO  "owning" Linux and
C++?

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Well professionals use them on safety critical things.

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Are there any *technical* reasons why SDCC is a better compiler?

Free, open source and the ability to run on a particular OS have no
bearing on how good a compiler is.

Accuracy, optimisation, compactness of code, support for variants (there
are over 500 different 8051's using about 30 different cores including
those with 24 bit addressing, contiguous memory greater than 64K  and
maths co-processors. etc


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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
Chris Hills threw some tea leaves on the floor

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Can you please be more specific ?

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How about if you use OSX and want to use SDCC ?

The source is *not* just for compiler writers.

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Nothing is guaranteed, except death and taxes.

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What kind of "free products" are you talking about ?

I'm specifically referring to "Free" ie software licensed under the
GPL.

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Yeah, the court in Utah has ordered SCO to produce the discovery
information required by IBM in the current lawsuit. They had 30 days to
produce *evidence* of their claims in detail, something they have failed
to to so far.

In about 2 weeks we will see if SCO can actually *prove* their claims
that IBM put some IBM developed code in GNU/Linux as disallowed by the
contract they have with SCO regarding their legacy UNIX source code.

For those that don't know, the SCO lawsuit is with IBM, it has nothing
to do with GNU/Linux.

... SCO extortion mode on ...
Oh by the way Chris, I own all the Keil source code, I don't intend to
prove it to anyone (because my code is secret), and if you don't want
to be sued as a Keil end user, you had better pay me $800 right away.
Or else.
.... SCO extortion mode off ....

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I'm sure they do. I'm sure that hobbyists use them to generate code for
puppy dog door openers and led blinkers too.

Perhaps while you're on this "safety critical" rant, you'd care to
paste here where Keil state that their products are guaranteed for use
in safety critical applications ?

Nuclear reactor controllers perhaps?
How about aircraft flight systems ?

Now I have absolutely *nothing* against Keil, it's another proprietary
product and I'm sure that Keil provide value commensurate to the cost,
for it's users.

However making Keil out to be something it's not, and then comparing
SDCC to that thing that Keil is not, is just a little erroneous to
my way of thinking.

Remember the original poster of this thread said, "FreeBsd" and "no
money". SDCC satisfies his criteria perfectly.

The term "life critical was brought here by you.

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SDCC and Keil are quite different for some reasons that you may not be
aware off, I have never claimed that SDCC is "better" than Keil, but we
can look at one instance where SDCC has an interesting feature, and
compare it to Keil if you like.

Simulation.
SDCC can run two or more instances of it's simulator on the same Linux
box, with each instance communicating with the other via pipes and
psuedo serial comms.

Each instance can be monitored, and values altered etc, the serial
comms can also be monitored to see that both simulated micros are doing
what's required.

Perhaps you could illustrate how Keil performs the same task on the
same PC under Windows ?

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I beg to differ, as I believe that all these aspects are important.

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Pleas elaborate ?

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Opts used differ because requirements differ. Do you want smaller code,
or faster code ? Do you want to simulate the code and have some idea
what you're looking at ?

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Relates to the opts used.

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The OP said "AT89C2051" and SDCC works fine with this variant, I know I
have code produced by SDDC running on one.

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We all know this Chris, the 8051 family has the most variation and the
most diverse range of manufacturers of any microprocessor around, and
that's why it's so popular.

However the OP is only using one fairly standard micro the Atmel
AT89C2051, and SDCC will produce C code for that no problems.

SDCC fits the OPS stated requirements, namely zero cost and to run on
his FreeBsd system.

In the light of these requirements I believe that SDCC is the better choice.

Had the OP said "Lots of money, Windows only" I would not be
contributing to this thread.

--
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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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They are actually claiming that the "own" parts of the Linux kernel (and
all of C++ as well)  They intend to charge royalties on all Linux (and
C++ ) users... They must be pretty desperate to do this because as soon
as they do identify the code I can see it taking about a month before
the next release comes out without that code in.  So it won't make any
difference.

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The difference is that AFAIK SCO have identified certain areas that they
believe are theirs. As it is open source this they will have to show
that they developed the source first and that is it is the same stuff.  
It's not quite the same as the scenario above. The code is open.

I think the "case" is that they did some stuff for IBM that IBM later
released into the Gnu/Linux chain. However as you say it is all very
flimsy. I think it is a last ditch attempt by SCO to stay afloat. AFAIK
SCO is what used to be Caldera.

Also how the hell they think they can justify owning C++ beats me. No
wonder Californian lawyers are rich.


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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
Chris Hills threw some tea leaves on the floor

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I must be falling behind, I haven't heard the C++ ownership clams by
SCO.

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Agreed, but first I'd like to see them *prove* that they own
anything. My current SCO believability meter is hard against the 0
stop.

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This is not correct. SCO have not shown any code that is theirs and is
in GNU/Linux. They had two "showings" of alleged code (where much of the code
was blacked out or discuised) and on both occasions the code was
tracked down within hours and shown to be code that SCO doesn't own.

http://perens.com/SCO/SCOSlideShow.html

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Actually the dispute is with IBM, there is *no OSS dispute before any
court by SCO*

Sure Darl McBribe has made a lot of noise in the press and in fact has
has made many OSS related claims, but there is no legal action regarding
OSS by SCO pending.

On the other hand SCO has been sued by RedHat for the claims that SCO
have made, and the damage they have caused RedHat as a result.

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This all incredibly murky:-

This is the actual guts of the *legal dispute*:-
It's my understanding that the code that SCO *claim* belongs to them,
was actually developed by IBM and the license that IBM bought from
Novel (before Novel sold the rights to SCO) is purported to give SCO
ownership of any IBM developed code on UNIX System 5 technology.

Here is an analysts summary of SCOs claims, in the pending legal action
SCO vs IBM:-

"IBM supported GNU/Linux with code and/or knowledge derived from the
original AT&T Unix (now owned by SCO).  Largely in the form of
printer drivers (presumably the IBM Omni printer drivers) and
unspecified linux kernel code enhancements, largely supported on
the basis of IBM marketing or press statements.."

Darl McBride and Chris Sontag have made many wild and unsubstantiated
claims that are not the subject of legal actions anywhere, and until
they are and the cases are resolved, I think it's safe to completely
ignore them.

........SCO mode on........
In the same vein Chris, I note I haven't received your $800 license
payment for using Keil products that I claim are based on my code.
What's up with that?
.......SCO mode off.......

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You're exactly right, Caldera was sold by Ray Noorda and became SCO.

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SCO has made many outrageous claims and *none* of them have been proven
in a court of law, or even demonstrated by SCO to be factual.

The theory as you say is just a "pump n dump" scheme by Darl McBride
to keep the share prices high, as SCO aren't making any money selling
their version of UNIX.

Ironically the latest SCO UNIX offerings are full of OSS products, such as
Samba.


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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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This is what I saw re SCO and  C++ (see below) ....  How they hell they
expect to enforce this in the VERY unlikely outside chance that the win
is any bodies guess.

In the C and C++ standards panels they haven't stopped laughing.  Even
Dennis Richte commented (see below)

 
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So it makes the comments blow look as though some one is taking mind
altering substances :-)

Next SCO claim they invented the internet :-)

/////////////////////////////

 SCO already believe they own C++ and
have been claiming license revenue for years...

From Alexander Terekhov on the Boost lists:

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2877578,00.h
tml

<quote author="Darl McBride" when20%02>

We get several dozen requests a month just to come in and see AIX
or HP-UX code base. And C++ programming languages, we own those,
have licensed them out multiple times, obviously. We have a lot of
royalties coming to us from C++. It was interesting to see the
depth of Caldera's intellectual capital.

</quote>

http://www.mozillaquest.com/Linux03/ScoSource-02_Story03.html#C++_Issues

<quote>

C++ Issues

MozillaQuest Magazine: C++ appears to be one of the properties
that SCO acquired through Novell's acquisition of AT&T's UNIX
Systems Laboratories and subsequent purchase of Novell's UNIX
interests by SCO. At this time most Linux and/or GNU/Linux
distributions include C++ compilers and editors. Is this
something for which SCO currently charges? If so, just what
are the current arrangements? If not, will C++ licensing and
enforcement be added to SCO's licensing and enforcement program?

Blake Stowell: C++ is one of the properties that SCO owns today
and we frequently are approached by customers who wish to license
C++ from us and we do charge for that. Those arrangements are
done on a case-by-case basis with each customer and are not
disclosed publicly. C++ licensing is currently part of SCO's
SCOsource licensing program.

MozillaQuest Magazine: How about GNU C++? Does GNU C++ use
SCO IP? If so, could SCO license and/or charge for use of its
IP in GNU C++?

Blake Stowell: I honestly don't know.

MozillaQuest Magazine: Does the C++ that currently is included
in most if not all Linux distributions contain SCO IP?

(a) If so, is that being done with or without SCO
permissions/licensing?

(b) If so, what impact/affect does this have on the ability
of people to freely distribute and use copies of those
Linux distributions? (Under GNU licensing, anyone may
make as many copies of a GNU/Linux distribution as they
please, freely distribute them for no charge and/or for
a charge, and use a GNU/Linux on as many computes as they
please -- at no charge. Etc.)

Blake Stowell: Again, I don't know. That's something we would
have to research.

</quote>

regards,
alexander.

P.S. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article13%342

<quote>

6 SCO will sue and send $1M bills to every government branch
found using Linux. IBM's CEO will offer NASA $1B cash
and indemnify the agency from any damages if they make SCO's
Darl McBride a "space tourist" in orbit, but with no return
ticket.

</quote>

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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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... snip ...
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You have the obvious cure available - download and store the
source yourself.  You can now take over maintenance whenever you
please.

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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
CBFalconer threw some tea leaves on the floor

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Exactly. SDCC source is readily available, (I've got about the last 5
versions myself) and anyone anywhere can compile and use it on anything
they want to.

If it was *really* important to have it modified to suit yourself,
there is no problem paying a programmer to do just that.


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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project

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well for a few cheap dev / proto boards
from US$29 - $70 (no lpc9xxx)

8051
http://www.futurlec.com/T89C51Training.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/T89C51DevBoard.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/P89C51DevBoard.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/P89C51Controller.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/AT89C52Controller.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/AT89S8252DevBoard.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/DS89C420Controller.shtml
http://www.futurlec.com/DevBoardAccessories.shtml
These guys can take a up to a few weeks to ship
but are cheaper than most other places.
(can put other manufacturers 8051's in these boards as long as they are pin
compatable)
If you order any of their boards
order the extra chips(eeprom , rs422/485, rtc(real time clock) etc)
at the same time. And any of the accessories - lcd.

Also can run most of their boards faster(depending on micro)
by replacing the crystal with a high speed.



another cheap 8051 dev board for US$39
http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod_detail&part=NMIY -
0031
 http://tinyurl.com/2vrqq

http://www.newmicros.com/cgi-bin/store/order.cgi?form=prod&cat80%51

http://www.batronix.com/ have a couple of 8051 boards

http://www.phytec.com/sbc/sbc8.htm

may find a few other links on Jan Axelson's page
http://www.lvr.com/microc.htm

http://www.lpc900.com /

Alex



Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
Davon Shire threw some tea leaves on the floor

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You can't program the AT89C2051 in system, however you can use a
burner/dev circuit for in system programming. I have a GPL one I
designed a few years ago on my web page.

http://milkstone.d2.net.au/burn.html

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Then use SDCC, it will be perfect for your usage. I see that some have
suggested Keil, however Keil seems to be MICROS~1 Windows centric ?
If that's the case Keil won't run on your FreeBsd box, whereas SDCC
will.

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SDCC is definitely your answer then. It has a wide following, a great
simulator and is nice and stable.

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Fairly easy to do with SDCC, I'd say.

A friend recently wrote a 2 line by 16 character LCD test routine using
SDCC, and it worked fine, he had no difficulty doing it.



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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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It's a new year let's put this one to rest and get some work done.

Dear Terry and Chris.

   Thank you both for your time and diligence in this discussion. I have
used the content of my first post to help point out a few things and
maybe bring to focus what's really important.

   Chris you are an Engineer type. You have all your credentials and
your whatever and that's great.

   Terry you have the heart of pit bull (meant in a good way) and the
brains of dedicated developer for OSS. Both are greatly appreciated. You
  did some fine foot work asking back questions and giving answers but
really. In the end it's not going to matter if Chris paid attention to
my first post or not, here's why.

   I want to make this work in the worst/best way. I haven't got the
board yet. But I'm dreaming code and taking stomach tablets waiting to
get into the project and get it done.

   Chris your major failing was you said. 'Don't use SDCC' which is kind
of like saying, "nevermind using the sidewalk. Get from point A - B
using the bus." Your reasoning being really that the bus had more bells,
whistles and a better map of the city. Even though I mentioned I have a
nice pair of tennis shoes. (FreeBSD box) and wanted to use them.

   Terry, clearly you know more about the SDCC than I do, and you have
made some excellent points as to why I could/would want to use it. I
still haven't much of a clue how to make use of the simulator but I need
to read more I'm sure.

   Facts that are now current in this project.
   1. I bought for about $65.00 US a prebuilt LPC932 proto board from
the www.8052.com site. It seems to cover pretty much everything I need.

   2. this means I'm going to have the crippled Keil software, which I
can use and will use if it's easier/quicker.

   3. I'm going to need to learn to write code so I can take the pieces
that's been pointed out to me and try and put them together. Hopefully
in a dependable and functional way.

   4. Optimization was really never a factor in this design. Because I
Just want it to WORK.

   5. I only picked the at89c2051 because I had found a schematic and
pcb design I could use to put it together. I didn't see how I could
program it though. So that was how I got this whole thing started to
begin with.

   6. I have no dedication to any platform save the ones I can cheaply
aquire. I'd have used a basic stamp if it looked like a good cheap idea.

   7. A Simulator is a must I feel if I'm going to have a chance to make
this work. And a simulator that works in a way I can figure out is even
better. The S51 simulator seems good but alot like gdb when it comes to
using it. It took me about 2 weeks to really get a decent grasp on gdb.

   8. I need to program this in C, simply because I know C the best and
bit fiddling with ASM would melt my brain and increase the development time.

   9. If/when this job is finished. I may well become interested in
designing more with these chips. they seem incredibly well priced for
hobbiests. I have day dreamed a dozen more uses for these chips to help
friends and have fun with.

   10. I very much appreciate the views and opinions of eveyone here and
I hope in the future I may have a chance to contribute.


Best wishes for a good new year for one and all.

Davon

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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project



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Do you have a link to where on 8052.com you found this board ???

Thanks


Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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My Appologies, it was from http://www.keil.com/mcb900/ this is the board
I purchased.

I'd just stumbled there from the 8052.com site.

Davon


Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
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In US      http://www.keil.com
In Europe  http://www.hitex.co.uk

The board is the Keil MCB900  


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\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
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Re: Newbie assistance for Atmel at89c2051 project
Davon Shire threw some tea leaves on the floor

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Bwahahahah, but I'm not nearly as vicious as one :)

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I took it that way, after all to advocate Free Software in a Windows
world, one must develop thick skin in the first few years. :)
I've been running only GNU/Linux, on the desktop since August 1997, by
way of background.


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Well said, and it's a fair learning curve as with any new tool.

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Absolutely, use whatever tool suits you best, that's my motto.

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In that case why not use an Avr Mega ? :)
That's what I use these days with Avr-Gcc and I love it, it's much more
mature than SDCC. I've got one clocking at 24Mhz on my bench at the
moment, (damn that's fast) but don't tell the people here or Atmel will
just raise the prices for the 8 Mhz Mega8l ;-)

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Hey that's a bit sensible, where is your brand and product zealotry ?

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Gdb is complex, but most debuggers are I think ? You can see DDD (the
GUI debugger running as a front end to Gdb) on my site debugging some
8051 code.

It's a little rough around the edges in many areas, and I'd like to
point out that I'm not comparing it to Keil or claiming that it's
"better", in fact in many areas I bet Keil is *vastly* easier and more
straightforward to use.

Chris wouldn't be so outspoken about Keil unless it was a great
product!

However SDCC is GPL'd, Free and under slow development at the moment.
It will do code for the 8051 family, some PIC variants and a few other
micros in C. It  has a simulator that can be used with GUI front ends
such as DDD.

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I think C is perfect for your project, as your project is small and
there aren't any timing constraints, correct me if I'm wrong ?

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A really concise post Davron, I think you have it all under control :)

Thanks for your debate as well Chris, you dealt with my points like a
true gentleman:)



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