LPC900/80C51 Compiler Toolchain

Absolutely.

There is also some element of self fulfilling prophecy here. A "If I'm going to be treated as a wolf I might a well behave as one" reaction some people will have. Others will react as you and I and simply start discounting commercial software for its treatment of customers.

Certainly piracy occurs. I would, maybe naively, hope that embedded development tools would be less prone to that than desktop software. Strangely though the two subsets have move in opposite directions although MS seems to be moving back.

There are some good guys out there. Gimpel comes to mind although they are affected by the fact that their tools are not primarily aimed at embedded work.

Robert

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Robert Adsett
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You are very naive.

How silly.

Not in the slightest. It is just as prone to it. In some areas it is worse In some ways PD, Sharware and FOSS has made it worse in that many now expect all SW to be free

MS is playing a different game of world domination. Enough people pay so they can give it away thus swamping the competition. You will find that the activation/tracking and projection starts to take a much stronger hold with MS stuff once they have "everyone" using it.

Gimpel are victims of piracy but their PC tools are very inexpensive. For most industrial users it is easier to buy it than not

However their Flexe Lint (for unix/linux) is over 10 times the price of the PC version

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Reply to
Chris Hills

Flexlm is not a dongle system.

The keil system was either a parallel or USB dongle. Easy to move . I know many who did just that.

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Reply to
Chris Hills

You don't think some people will have that reaction?

No sillier than discounting suppliers for lack of support in other areas. It doesn't mean they won't get used just that it becomes a consideration when determining what SW supplier and even what micro architecture to use.

I'm afraid your are probably right. There have certainly been a number of requests for how to get free copies of commercial compilers, they do seem to have been uncommon though.

Robert

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Robert Adsett

Sure it is, it just happens to be implemented in SW and they generally charge extra for you to be able to move from machine to machine. Oh and, of course, some marketers will use the lack of a physical dongle to claim SW thus equipped is 'dongle free'.

And as CB Falconer pointed out, there are cases where a physical dongle cannot be tranfered either.

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

No. A dongle is a piece of HW.

FlexLM is something else....

Some do and some don't I have never understood why they charge for this. One compiler vendor lets you change it (FOC) via the web site

The solution I have seen is to lock thelicens to the MAC of the network adaptor. I have a USB-Ethernet network adapter that work just fine for that and in effect will give me a movable dongle for a node lock system

The problem is that I have seen people who buy one copy of the SW and use a printer switch box to have 2-4 people sharing the same license.

I know what you mean... it is "dongle free" but it is also "Node Locked" Marketing people need shooting. (and a good kicking)

There are? I thought the whole point of the physical dongle was to permit movement of the license. I am trying to remember if any [hw] dongle systems I know would not let you move and I can't think of any. Though I don't doubt there must have been some.

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Reply to
Chris Hills

Methinks we will just have to disagree on this particular definition.

Interesting, I don't remember ever seing any one use FlexLm and not charge more for not being locked to a partuclar machine.

An interesting work around. Won't work for my NT system of course.

I've seen that too and it's made me uncomfortable, but I dont really see it as morally any differnt from moving a USB based MAC around.

Well the obvious one is the case of a parallel port dongle which he pointed out. There is an increasingly large subset of machines w/o a parallel port.

Also I do seem to recall it being a condition of some licenses. The dongle was supposed to be for a single machine only.

Robert

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Robert Adsett

It's that attitude that is the problem. A working dongle is a proof that either the software was bought legitimately, or that the the dongle was stolen from someone else who bought the software. Lack of a working dongle is proof that the dongle is broken, or the dongle is missing (a USB dongle passed around amongst many people can easily be lost), or that the dongle was stolen, or that the licensing software has crapped out, or that that the software was stolen.

From the point of view of the honest customer, illegally copying or using the software is not their problem, and the honest customer resents the supplier making it their problem by forcing them to use dongles or other locks. The dishonest customer will use a cracked copy and have no problems. This is why the onus is on the supplier to make any locks of absolute minimal hassle to their honest customers - something that some suppliers do, but others do not.

It works for a great many types of software - it was the standard from the early days of software (the GNU project was a return to the old ways, not a new concept), it has always been the standard in some areas of software, and it is increasing in use through open source software. Companies release their software as open source to make more money - it's that simple.

That doesn't mean it will work for every developer in every branch of software development, of course - merely that it *does* work for many people.

Reply to
David Brown

On my home computer, I have a few computer games in cracked or downloaded versions - while at the same time, I have the original version sitting on my shelf. That way I can run the games without the hassle of the "protection" mechanism (having the CD/DVD in the computer), for greater convenience and lower risk - the originals are safe and won't get worn or scratched. I have known of people with similar attitudes to development software. In these cases, the users have bought a license but are still using unlicensed versions - if a supplier makes life more difficult for the honest customer, the temptation to dishonesty (or at least, to "bend" the rules) increases.

Reply to
David Brown

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"In article , ChrisQuayle says... | |> Chris, it's not just the problems with dongles and flexlm etc that | |> irritates. It's the business relationship where i am being asked to | |> shell out thousands and put my trust in the vendor to provide timely and | |> accurate support, while at the same time, the dongles etc tell me that | |> they don't trust me. | | | |Absolutely." | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Sheesh, they do not trust everybody. They are not necessarily saying that you will steal, but somebody would steal. You are entitled to resent dongles (and complaints such as a dongle might malfunction or become lost are valid), but being insulted that all customers are given a dongle each is something I deem to be an overreaction. For example, a landlord from who I rented accommodation and shared a yard with was insulted that I locked a vehicle because he would not steal it. If I ever visit you, please do not think that I necessarily suspect that you will steal my vehicle if I lock it. Someone else could steal it otherwise. Similarly, any time I have taken an opaque bag into a shop and a staffmember of the shop requested to look into the bag, I was not being accused of stealing and I was not insulted: checking whether I stole something was a perfectly legitimate goal of the shop's staff. Similarly in other shops, entering with one's own bags is forbidden: this again is not an accusation that everyone is a thief, but it might prevent some thefts. I may find it inconvenient that I may not enter a particular shop with a bag of my own, but just as a dongle may be inconvenient, it is not necessarily enough for me to be insulted and invoke a boycott.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"There is also some element of self fulfilling prophecy here. A "If I'm | |going to be treated as a wolf I might a well behave as one" reaction | |some people will have. [..]" | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Perhaps. However, whether something is priced cheaply or expensively, people will still moan that it costs too much and will steal it: e.g. on

formatting link
in 1984 someone moaned: "[..] Why do software houses have to charge so much for their software tapes? Most tapes are priced around five to six pounds, [..]

[..]"

If things cost even less, people will still steal them but they might not try some pathetic excuse such as the cost. E.g. many Spectrum tapes had even cheaper prices but piracy was a problem, so the company named Ultimate Play the Game increased its prices to far higher than average such that people would be deterred from giving away something which cost a lot of money. (This was mentioned in Keith Ainsworth's excellent article for his magazine "Retrogamer", but it does not seem to be in the gratis excerpt on

formatting link
.) Raising the prices may have resulted in people using the high prices as an excuse to illegally copy the games.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------| |"Certainly piracy occurs. I would, maybe naively, hope that embedded | |development tools would be less prone to that than desktop software. | |[..] | | | |[..]" | |---------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Embedded development tools are also stolen. Perhaps they are less prone to this, but I do not understand how that would be. Bad people exist. The extensive amount of theft of software which is not bespoke software would scare me from trying to make a living programming for a domain populated by thieves.

Regards, Colin Paul Gloster

Reply to
Colin Paul Gloster

It's more like having your bag searched, then being falsely arrested and imprisoned for 3 days, being beaten around the head a few times...

Then when they release you they keep the bag!

(That's how long I spent trying to get my dongle-protected IAR software working again, before abandoning the effort. I can no longer compile my own code.)

--

John Devereux
Reply to
John Devereux

And how many people actually think it is reasonable for shop staff to insist on searching your bag? Personally, I'd consider it totally out of the question - the shop staff can insist you leave the premises (without seeing inside your bag), or they can call the police and persuade them that they suspect a crime is in progress.

With software locks, you've entered into a license agreement of some kind, which is a legal contract, and thus the supplier *may* have certain other rights.

Reply to
David Brown

Diab Data, before they got bought by Integrated Systems, who was bought out by Wind River, used to offer floating licenses for the same price as a SW node-lock. There was a 5-minute delay before a given license could be re-issued.

--Gene

Reply to
Gene S. Berkowitz

So there was at least one. Interesting, and thanks.

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

In article , Robert Adsett writes

Most offer floating licensees like that particularly in the 32/64 bit area. IAR do it from 8-32. (Actually, somewhat unusually, they offer dongle, node-lock and floating on all their compilers)

Many others node lock without a dongle BTW a dongle is an item of HW. It may not always be a lock for a license the term is used for other bits of add on HW

The reason is that their software does get pirated. Even with protection there are people who try to crack it.

As was mentioned in this thread when you go places you lock your car. This does not imply the people you are visiting are going to steal it but thousands of cars do get stolen every year. Even locked ones.

You trust your neighbours but lock your house when you go out and at night.

IT is not that they are suggesting that you might steal the compiler. Though do you have any evidence, they can easily see that you won't? I bet 90% of programmers have at least 1 item of dubious SW on their compilers... at home if not at work.

Those of you screaming "it is an insult" I suggest you take your laptop into the nearest city and ask the first stranger you see who says they are honest to look after it for 24 hours and bring it back.... Now why are you dubious about that? Are you suggesting this person you have never met might not be 100% honest? What an insult! :-)

Compiler companies don't know who the good and bad guys are any more than you do so SW protection is not personal. Anyone who thinks it is really needs counselling.

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Reply to
Chris Hills

On Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:41:57 +0100, Chris Hills wrote:

The problem with all this protection is not that they prevent someone from stealing it, they prevent the legitimate user from potentially being able to use it. We have an IAR compiler for the 68HC16 which have used on a number of earlier designs. We will not the 68HC16 again on new designs, but we do have the requirement of having to add some small functionality to these old products once in a while. The protection software does not run on new hardware. IAR's response is that they can offer an upgrade. This is not acceptable. We potentially might have to change some code. It can have different bugs, and often the changes are laterally a few lines of code. This sort of problem becomes a nightmare when companies are bought out, or goes under. We have actually switched to gcc on some older 68k projects, because the very expensive 68k compilers we bought is totally unusable. The company we bought it from lost the software to generate an authenticate code that is required to run it on a new hard drive. We had the choice of either reverse engineer the protection code, or switching. Switching to gcc turned out to be a blessing. It generated MUCH better code than the very expensive commercial compiler we had used. To get back to you car analogy. Yes, one does lock one's car, but if the car had some sensor to check that you parked in your own garage every 48hours, or it would refuse to start, then people will not use it. If one had problems with such a system after a year or two of ownership, and the car manufacturer told you that you had to buy a new car because your model is now out of date, would you accept this ? Why are consumers to accept terms for software , which would be totally unacceptable for anything else ?

Anton Erasmus

Reply to
Anton Erasmus

In article , Anton Erasmus writes

Then archive the PC with the compiler.

And a current commercial compiler would generate far better code than the GCC... You are comparing an old compiler with a current one

That does not happen in reality Cars and compilers don't work like that. Can we have a real world analogy. Actually the Flex LM systems does do what you suggest. So you are happy with fFlexLM?

That IS what happens,... once a car is outside its warrantee.. 1-3 years.

They don't there is no difference between SW and anything else. Other than the user can easily copy the SW.

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Reply to
Chris Hills

... snip ...

You must be dreaming. My car is modern (for me) and 8 years old. The only reason I don't have a 19 year old backup is that a major relocation made that awkward, and unnecessary. And I have reached the age where I no longer do my own repairs. I think I am quite typical.

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Reply to
CBFalconer

Insults don't have to be personally directed to be felt. It simply becomes part of a climate of mistrust. I don't know what the answer to piracy is but I'm not convinced copy protection (HW or SW) is it.

And of course you cannot change your garage without approval from the automobile manufacturing company. If they no longer provide it for the vehicle then well that's just too bad.

This really is the nub of the problem. What actually do you buy when you purchase SW? Is it a tool or a service? Do you have the right to use it as long as you wish? Or only as long as the provider deigns? I lean toward the tool definition myself, understandably some vendors lean more towards a service model. Only a very few have gone as far as requiring regular payments to keep a program running (none that I know of in embedded, but I've heard tales from other fields).

I had heard that the recording industry tried to impose similar restrictions in the early days but ran afoul of the reality of not being able to enforce the terms. They have tried again with DRM and we've yet to see how that plays out.

Robert

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Reply to
Robert Adsett

PC's fail too (even in storage). Not all projects can afford the overhead of archiving a PC in a manner that it ensures it will be reuseable. Not that it's a bad idea, especially for a project that is essentially static but must still be capable of being maintained.

Cars don't. A number of commercial compilers certainly do. I think that was his point.

Physical dongles are more like a access card that must be inserted into the window of the garage for the car to start. And garages are in a constant state of change so that new garages may not support old window frames.

You aren't allowed to drive your car once the warrantee expires?

Software cannot be felt, tasted or smelled. I'm sure there are more differences.

Robert

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Robert Adsett

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