Job fairs == waste of time

I did something stupid today. I went to a "technology" job fair. I'm not sure why I thought this made sense. I thought it would somehow be productive to walk up to random recruiters, ask if they had any low-level software positions, and if so then give them my resume and maybe converse a little.

It turns out some companies at a "technology" fair aren't even looking for software (despite it's very widespread prevalence in the world of "technology"), or if they are then they're looking to fill very specific positions sometimes requiring X years of experience in Y. Also, some of the recruiters have no idea what the word "embedded" might mean. I'm not sure if they understand "device driver" or "kernel" either.

Here's what I don't understand. Why go to the trouble of crowding 50 companies into a room, only 4 of which might actually be interesting and only 1 of those 4 of which might actually have a job I want? Sure, there's a chance for a quick on-the-spot interview, but it really doesn't seem worth the trouble. How about each of those companies post detailed descriptions of their open positions on some job web site on the Internet, candidates take as much time as they need to read the descriptions then send in their resumes, and the companies take as much time as they need to read the resumes then call the people they like. Yes, I like this much better. Job fairs are a waste of time.

Reply to
BubbaGump
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Dude, relax. If you were to come to me for an interview, I would not be looking at experience so much as I would be looking for passion. Someone who is generally interested and passionate about what they do can achieve far more, and will learn far more than someone who is just looking to make money. As Robert Hughes said (IIRC) "A determined soul will do more with a rusty monkey wrench than a loafer will accomplish with all the tools in a machine shop".

IMHO, the jobs where you get quizzed on every design pattern,algorithm, data type etc. are not worth shit, because they are typically the jobs that a full of dickheads. The jobs that quiz you find out if you have the fire for what they do are the jobs you want. You will always go further, the company will appreciate you and you will learn more. In return, the company will get a dedicated employee that will give them what they want.

I just yesterday scored a job with one of the worlds biggest software companies. IT was not because I knew the technology that they used, it was because I wanted to learn the technology that they used. I had spent the time to research what they did, and when I did I had decided that I wanted to work for that company. I knew that I would benefit from working for them, and likewise I would be rewarded if I performed. This attitude reflected in the interview and I got the job.

If you really want to learn, and you want to be proud of what you do, a good employer will see this. This employer is who you want to work for.

Reply to
The Real Andy

So what is "technology" then? Software? Hardware? IT support? Operation of radio telescopes? I suspect it just means "jobs using a computer" - the organisers wouldn't make any money if it was all too specific.

Not if they make toasters. However, most of the people manning these stands are HR drones or overkeen graduates from anywhere within the company.

I disagree. The first job fair I went to resulted in three interviews and two job offers. There were a wide range of companies recruiting for a wide range of roles but a sensible candidate would have spotted this, read through the brochure and targetted the firms they fancied.

It is probably impractical for all the potential recruiters to contact you before the show to find out if they should bother attending and it does seem a little unfair on the other candidates who might not want to be an embedded engineer (which you appear to think means purely writing device drivers for RTOSs)

Reply to
Tom Lucas

Oh, I disagree. I go them periodically for networking reasons. The last job fair I went to, I talked to several guys from semiconductor companies and got some useful contacts for people to work with on future book projects.

Reply to
larwe

I did this by checking out each of 58 companies' web sites beforehand. I found 4 that I liked and 54 whose web sites were so convoluted and full of business hype that I couldn't figure out what they did. Of the 4, 3 weren't even looking for software people or couldn't understand why I thought they might be (am I crazy to think a modern photocopier or fax machine might be complicated enough to be based around a microcontroller running an embedded OS?) The 1 left wasn't as low-level as I wanted.

This low probability of actually finding a company that happens to sign up for a job fair and also happens to be a company that interests me is what makes me think it's a waste of time. On the off chance a company I really like does attend one of these, does it really matter whether I handed in my resume in person as opposed to sending it by e-mail?

(in fairness, my first full-time job was gained through a job fair, but I consider it a happy accident)

I've wondered if I mis-use the word "embedded". What's a more accurate term for work implementing BIOSes, boot loaders, device drivers, and operating system internals?

Reply to
BubbaGump

"good employer" you say? A very rare breed I'm afraid... (at least from this point of view)

It has been suggested to me that I get rid of "passionate about applied science and technology" in my CV because it sounds too Latin (which in fact I am :-) so I changed it to "enthusiastic" which is not that bad after all.

Then I have this "home-built ZX-Spectrum compatible" on the last line (under technical hobby). Do you think they bother? One in ten asks about it or my other technical hobbies.

Adrian

PS. Seems to matter whether one has just got a job or they are still looking for :-)

Reply to
Adrian Spilca

Explain this to me. You didn't know these guys beforehand? You just went up and talked about who-knows-what for the hell of it?

There was one company I talked to that told me they outsource their software development to other companies, and I did ask who those companies were. Is this "networking"?

Reply to
BubbaGump

I think it's good to be honest about these things and support the good employers. It's the only way the good employers will survive. If we cave to the bad, stupid, shallow employers then before long they'll be all we have to choose.

I think of it as a form of voting. If no one works for the bad people, then they'll go out of business. Don't think there aren't enough of us. That's what cost third-party candidates like Ralph Nader the election.

Fight or die trying.

Reply to
BubbaGump

Darn. One company I like apparently does that. I was hoping it'd be fun, but maybe it is a poor measure of performance. I think the best measure would be to have a candidate do a small portion of the sort of work that would be done during the job, large enough to be meaningful but small enough that it doesn't hold up the interview process forever. Of course, this would require a computer, not one of those braindead whiteboards about which I've heard (who the hell besides a college instructor writes code on a white board?)

I've been showing this attitude in my cover letters (For example, "I'm contacting you because I enjoy the type of work you describe."), but so far it hasn't gotten me as many phone interviews as I've liked. I know, it doesn't show specific interesting in "the company", but to me a thing (person or company) is what the thing does. If the work the company does interests me, including the industry in which that work is done, then barring other imperfections the company interests me.

Reply to
BubbaGump

I don't list hobbies on my CV and never have done. At *best*, you can break even by listing them; you often dig a big hole. I remember one marginal CV that I read years ago - I was wavering on the edge of calling the guy in for interview, but he listed his hobbies as including 'wassailing, bell-ringing, quaffing, filking' and various other things that made me think he was a beard/sandals/big hairy Fair Isle sweater pratt. Another one to avoid is never give the URL of a personal home page. It just makes it easier to shoot candidates down. The guy who had a collection of crudely-faked topless pics of the Spice Girls never got called in for interview either.

A CV is a *professional* document and as such should only reflect your professional life.

pete

--
pete@fenelon.com "it made about as much sense as a polythene sandwich"
Reply to
Pete Fenelon

Absolutely. I went up to one of the recruiters at the company of interest, gave him my resume, and said "but I really want to talk to you about cross-promotional opportunities; I write books, and these books are usually focused on a particular vendor's chips". He gave me the names and phone numbers of a couple of people who work with that sort of thing.

It depends. Did they give you a specific person to call at the other company? If not, then no.

Reply to
larwe

Two things:

1) I thought the issue was not to list random hobbies but to list hobbies that are work-related, with the idea being that a person who develops software in their spare time is easier to motivate than a person who only develops software for money.

2) The idea of "professional" is corrupt. Many people who present professional images do sloppy and unprofressional work. That guy with the loose, liberal attitude about life might actually have been a responsible worker, but you missed out because you were looking for someone who would lie to you. Everyone is unprofessional in some part of their life. It's only the honest people who admit it.

Reply to
BubbaGump

There's a connection I'm missing. The company of interest used the vendors' chips in their products?

Huh. Would they have that information readily available? Maybe if I got *their* business card then contacted them later? At a certain point, does this become pushy? Isn't it rude to not really be interested in them and only use them in order to get to someone else I want? It's like going up to an ugly girl and asking for the phone number of her hot friend. Wait. Does that work?

Reply to
BubbaGump

Don't fret, they have to ask questions. For the job I scored recently, I was asked lots of technical questions, half of which I could not answer. But that only constituted one part of the interview.

That attitude will score you a job. But one thing you must remember is that even though you might pick the job, they are still paying you to work for them, and you should never forget that. If you maintain the attitude that 'I am special and you should be grateful that I work here' then you wont get a job. Likewise, someone that walks in proclaiming they know everything will get laughed out of the room.

Reply to
The Real Andy

They are rare and when you find one it may not be all that is expected. I have a friend that used to work for MS. HE reckons the employee benefits are great, but the downfall is that you work like a dog for them. Still, it looks good on your resume.

I think enthusiasm is a great word, however I think advertising personal behaviors on a resume is a bad thing. As someone else mentioned in another post, a resume is supposed to be professional.

I don't list hobbies on my resume. However my reasoning is far different to most. I am not degree qualified. I never completed my study. I need to come across as professional to disguise the fact that I am not formally qualified.

Trust me, removing hobbies and behavioral jargon from my resume has resulted in a lot more positive feedback over the years. :)

I always look for new jobs :)

Reply to
The Real Andy

What you're describing comes under the flag of embedded engineering but there is a lot more there as well. I count myself as an embedded engineer and don't go near any operating systems (other than my development environment on the PC). For example a company could be recruiting for someone to develop a simple temperature sensing device that needs no OS and the device driver consists of a read on the data bus. There is no bootloader or BIOS either. By your definition you would walk away in disgust because it is not "embedded engineering"

Reply to
Tom Lucas

Go up to the pretty one and ask for the ugly one's number. You're absolutely guaranteed* a bunk-up then. Is a question of realistic objectives.

*Not a guarantee.
Reply to
Tom Lucas

I know one chap whose first question in an interview is always "So, , are you any good?" simply to gauge the reaction.

He insists that way you can quickly screen out the prima donnas who are impossible to work with because they reply that they are without any qualification. Preferable answers are "I'm strong in x, y, and z, not so much on a, b, and c" or even (apparently) "No, I'm a load of shit."

--
Andrew Smallshaw
andrews@sdf.lonestar.org
Reply to
Andrew Smallshaw

I resent that. That sort of expectation may screen out the people who _think_ they know everything, but they also screen out those of us who really do!

:-)

--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
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Reply to
Tim Wescott

This question tells more about the interviewer problems, rather then anything about the interviewee.

Well, someone is looking to hire a submissive retard. And it is perfectly all right as long as he realizes what kind of person he is going to hire.

Vladimir Vassilevsky

DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant

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Reply to
Vladimir Vassilevsky

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