That's why I said the "cool thing about hte Raspberry Pi is that it's quite hackable."
On a standard laptop, though, it's no problem to find cheap USB-connected GPIO cards if you like.
Debugging tools on a PC are good enough that you don't really need a JTAG connector -- even for Kernel debugging, you just use a second PC connected via an Ethernet or serial port link.
---Joel
How does highly integrated, and even *closed*, hardware accomplish that?
Yep. I started taking apart military stuff to salvage 2N697s and TVs for the passives.
Those weren't closed and certainly weren't highly integrated. This thing just looks like an appliance. "Don't look behind the curtain."
I'm not buying it. It can still be done. I don't see that a modern PC does much, either, though. OTOH, I don't see that this does *anything*, certainly less than any number of SDKs. Seems like a Broadcom gimmick.
It's *DOOMED*. ;-)
According to what I've read, the point is to use the RPi as something to which one can "bolt-on" hardware which you can then play with by writing software to run on the RPi.
An appliance with a GPIO header, which I presume is documented and accessible to the user. I would have preferred an 8-bit or 16-bit expansion bus with a couple pre-decoded chip-select lines as well.
Yea, I've got a few stories about CS majors who tried to get a little too close to the hardware...
--
Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Clear the laundromat!!
at This whirl-o-matic just had
gmail.com a nuclear meltdown!!
So it is a script-kiddy toy. You can do that with a PC.
USB to whatever.
I love it when they try to do VHDL. ;-)
On a sunny day (Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:11:37 +0000 (UTC)) it happened Grant Edwards wrote in :
Writing is an art, at least some writing, My diagrams are fine art too.
Beauty is in the beholders eye,
Whatever, for for example a bi tof ASCII art the unlimited possibility of the line length is a relief
----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === === | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ///
----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
I love this editor with rectangle mode. Took a few seconds to draw this.
AFAIK, the only thing "Closed" about the Pi is the graphics processor which has to be access through and API to a closed blob.
It seems to me that there is a good deal of fear and loathing about the Pi from entrenched interests.
Didn't you see the word "die" in my statement? Do you really think that the death of OLPC solely depended on FOSS? Yeah, right.
I suppose the financial crisis was because of not using FOSS in our banking system too?
Rick
monkeys
level
Software,
I admit that I haven't studied this thing in detail (I do hardware not software, if I can help it) but it seemed to me that the whole middleware slice was closed, as well as the hardware platform itself. Specs? What specs?
Me? Fear and loathing? No, disappointment. I'd *love* to see something that would get kids interested in electronics again. I'm close enough to retirement that they're not a threat to my lunch (which has benefited immensely from the lack of kids' hardware skills). ;-)
line length is a relief
----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
=== === === === === === === === === === === === ===
| | | | | | | | | | | | |
/// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// /// ///
----^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^----------^^^^^^------
it might have taken a few seconds,what is it?
monkeys
level
Software,
You should find something there, all it takes is to look.
Not necessarily you, but there are several posters in this thread who have a vested interest is selling similar products, and they seem to be the ones questioning the project.
I see that the price on the RS Australia site has dropped to $A38.00
Until I see one in the flesh I would prefer not to comment. My initial understanding is that it is not entirely closed and it has been designed to make it attractive to youngsters. Time will tell how good a job Raspberry Pi have done on this. I have to say their Charity returns suggest that like all UK stuff this has been done on a shoe string budget by the main players calling in favours from everywhere.
They are certainly not living high on the hog with an annual income of only £165 in 2010.
We will just have to wait and see. I hope they have got it right according to their aims to make computing interesting as a subject in schools.
I think that is unfair. Broadcom have almost certainly put up the money to make this thing possible both in terms of fabrication and manufacture with a target market of education. I think it is worth a try. Chemistry and physics have been completely emasculated in schools with no "interesting" experiments permitted any more by the draconian health and safety culture and legions of no-win no-fee lawyers.
No. These are the good guys responsible for verifiable hardware silicon compiler technologies and some other *very* good stuff. Braben & Bell wrote Elite which included some cunning hidden line removal tricks so that flight simulator guys Evans & Sutherland met them on a UK visit.
The pedigree of the two guys that I have previously known suggests to me that this thing might be very good for teaching in schools and to get kids making programs for themselves at home. Depends really how easy they have made it to do sprites and other game components.
The world at the moment is crazy. We should have the latest toolsets with full static testing and dataflow analysis used for teaching so that the next generation learn good habits. Instead the appropriate technologies for static error detection are only available to major corporate players at vastly inflated prices and ignored by engineers who have already picked up too many bad habits to use them :(
-- Regards, Martin Brown
On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Mar 2012 12:34:02 +1100) it happened F Murtz wrote in :
Lowpass :-)
On a sunny day (Tue, 06 Mar 2012 17:34:37 +1100) it happened keithr wrote in :
I dunno. I am retired, and am very critical of this so called 'educational' thing. There is no educational aspect in it any where.
Some closed source toy with closed binary drivers, hardly any I/O, missing keyboard, missing power supply, and missing a good book that explains computahs, electronics basics, programming basics, no display, not even a decent housing, how long will it live with 'kids' who put it on the table next to the metal ballpen or whatever, static discharges from rubber shoes, It is all hype. Press will publish any release you send them, including flying cars and what not. So what age group is this targeted at? Do they even have a soldering iron, some scope? You NEED that. And the youngsters that DO have access to that stuff will likely get a board with chips that have full documentation so they can get the maximum out of their toy. This strawberry pie has had far too much media exposure,
The Microchip PICs were and are extremely popular with the younger generation because they have decent datasheets, are easily programmable, and are available almost everywhere locally. As Don pointed out there are small boards with PICs too that run Linux for those that want that (for many projects you do not need a top heavy multitasker). PICs are cheap too. Look here for some projects I did with PICs:
Now let's look at the strawberry or whatever cake. That Broadcom chip is actually a media player chip. If you just install Linux and perhaps run the X server, then forget about the media player aspect, because ***X runs at a fixed H and V resolution***. Let's get a bit technical, after all this is a design group, many Linux enthusiast are here too. I recorded (with Linux and MY software) last night some DVB-S2 HD movie from Germany ZDF via satellite: -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 16006144000 Mar 6 00:58 spy_game_2001_german.ts
Now let's look at the format this is transmitted in, and what is in there: panteltje10: /video/satellite # mediainfo spy_game_2001_german.ts General ID : 3F3 Complete name : spy_game_2001_german.ts Format : MPEG-TS File size : 14.9 GiB Duration : 2h 41mn Overall bit rate : 13.2 Mbps
Video ID : 6110 (0x17DE) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) Format : AVC Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec Format profile : Main@L4.0 Format settings, CABAC : Yes Format settings, ReFrames : 5 frames Duration : 2h 41mn Bit rate : 11.2 Mbps Width : 1 280 pixels Height : 720 pixels Display aspect ratio : 16/9 Frame rate : 50.000 fps Resolution : 24 bits Colorimetry : 4:2:0 Scan type : Progressive Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.244 Stream size : 12.6 GiB (85%)
Audio #1 ID : 6120 (0x17E8) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 Duration : 2h 41mn Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 256 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Resolution : 16 bits Video delay : -1s 263ms Stream size : 295 MiB (2%) Language : German
Audio #2 ID : 6121 (0x17E9) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) Format : MPEG Audio Format version : Version 1 Format profile : Layer 2 uration : 2h 41mn Bit rate mode : Constant Bit rate : 192 Kbps Channel(s) : 2 channels Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz Resolution : 16 bits Video delay : -1s 216ms Stream size : 221 MiB (1%) Language : qaa
Text #1 ID : 6130 (0x17F2) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) Format : Teletext Language : German
Text #2 ID : 6131 (0x17F3) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) Format : DVB Subtitles Language : German
Menu ID : 6100 (0x17D4) Menu ID : 11110 (0x2B66) List : 6110 (0x17DE) (AVC) / 6120 (0x17E8) (MPEG Audio, deu) / 6121 (0x17E9) (MPEG Audio, mis) / 6122 (0x17EA) (AC-3, deu) / 6123 (0x17EB) (MPEG Audio, qaa) / 6130 (0x17F2) (Teletext, deu) / 6131 (0x17F3) (DVB Subtitles, deu) / 6170 (0x181A) () Language : / deu / mis / deu / qaa / deu / deu /
------------------------------------ That is the transport stream for this transmission. You will notice (perhaps) that the format is 1280 x 720 @ 50 fps progressive. If you want to play this in X with for example mplayer, EVEN if it has all the codecs, then theoretically the X server would have to refresh frames as 50 Hz IN SYNC with the video. That is for a MEDIAPLAYER, and that is one thing they claim it can do. Unfortunately X does NOT sync to the video framerate, so it will NORMALLY tare frames and drop frames at random, even if you add a modeline for 50 Hz. The fact with MEDIAPLAYER chips is that the CHIP does the grabbing of the next frame from memory, decodes it, displays it, and then grabs the next frame. I am sure this chip can do that, but can the standard Linux that comes with this thing support that feature? To give some idea what the actual problem is here, read this thread please:
So, as far as I can see, and that is not far in this case as most of that stuff is closed source, as a MEDIAPLAYER this thing is not very usable. And you cannot FIX it because it is closed source. It seems to come with Fedora Linux, now that is RatHead (had to drop that one on you) Linux, and it will be incompatible with the rest of the universe by design anyways, I'd love to be proven wrong, but the above issue make it a nono for me, it already is a nono for the simple fact that PICs are more suited for small projects, can be programmed in asm, close to the hardware, and then are faster, boot faster, more reliable than Linux for simple control operations like, as some person mentioned, controlling things around the house or some robotics or what not.
The ONLY reason I would want a strawberry cake would be a REAL multimedia player, or if it actually had WiFi.., as that would add to the spectrum of what you can build in a few days, but I already have several Linux boxes, some far more advanced than that hype thingy, so, And then to teach kids about electronics, maybe Winfield's The Art of Electronics is a bit too high a level for them to start, give them some transistors and an Ohm meter, some batteries, LEDs, the works. To teach them about PROGRAMMING give them a laptop or PC. maybe the OLPC.
AFAIK this document is useless because its far from complete.
Maybe its the people that create hardware & software for SoC based systems for a living and know about the pitfalls? In my experience proper documentation is key to be able to do something usefull with a SoC. So far the RP can run Linux. But what if you want to control something with it and need to write your own drivers to do that?
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
Electronics is a bit
But do NOT teach them the stupid term "computah".
I was waiting for someone to bring this up...
They Has Hell Weren't.
As someone who was of the 'younger generation' when the PICs and Stamps came out, I can tell you they were never seriously interesting to us. No, the excited approvals of a hand-held grandkid doesn't count-- we're talking about the self-taught 10-14 year-olds. Sure the chips were cheap(er)-- the programmers weren't, and f*ck the guys running garage businesses that sold them on the other side of the country. 100 fauxBASIC programming steps? Erase-Program-Run cycles? Tiiiiiinnnnnyyyyy memories? Harvard architecture? All of those were show-stoppers and classified them as junk. A 10 year old hand-me-down VIC20 was a better deal!
-- Chris
One of my planned uses of the Pi (once I finally get one) is to play Oolite on a big TV (for those that don't know, Oolite is the modern descendant of Elite, which was developed for the original BBC computers).
I don't know how much the Pi will be useful for teaching kids programming or other computing, but I think that even if you use it for games or a media player, it will still raise an awareness that the world of computing is not limited to PC's and windows. I don't see it inspiring millions of kids to program - but if it inspires some to look at what's inside a computer, and what is needed to put one together, then that's good.
Absolutely.
Lua is a good language to build into embedded systems too - I'm looking at this for a new project I'm working on:
Nowadays a lot of games use scripting. My 10 year old son is already working on scripts written in Lua to program some intelligence in items he created in an online game where you can build your own virtual world.
I don't know what to think of it but I guess its better than just watching TV.
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
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