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Hi Chris,

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Europe, and if it has to be low cost Eastern Europe.

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Not really. Almost all of Europe is free of that. So is most of Asia.

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But for EEs it's usually not enforced or there is an industry exemption.
If it was different you'd see a flurry of lawsuits including class
action which would drain the coffers of the respective state. Which in
turn would make their politicians think really hard about the "benefits"
of such laws ....

Regards, Joerg

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Really? What for? Surely not real engineering - management perhaps.

Mike Page BEng(Hons) MIEE 


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I sincerely hope not.  C.Eng is most certainly not any indicator of
management ability; in my experience it is quite the opposite.

Ian Bell

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No... for real engineering. Managers are something different. As with
the US this is aimed more at the safety critical/embedded end of things.

\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ \/\/

Hi Chris,

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That is not quite so. For example, nearly all transportation gear, med
equipment and so on is designed by companies without licensed engineers.
A license does not determine whether an engineer is able to safely
design, say, a unit with a proper failure mode handling. This is done by
rigorous agency regulations. The design (not the engineers) must pass UL
safety tests, EMI tests, FDA filings and so on. That's what creates
additional safety. IOW, if your have a product that doesn't pass you
don't really have a product.

Regards, Joerg

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I can't help seeing the obvious sense in this. Very succinct, thanks.


On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 21:43:42 +0100, the renowned Mike Page

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Fortunately, the testing that is required is determined by qualified
engineers. ;-)

On Monday, in article

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Not always true, most is determined by committees often full of retired
or near retiremnet people, that companies put on the committees to show
they are involved. Many Standards become more about politics (ISO
especially), whether it be national (see HDTV 'standards'), or competitive
(do some research on various companies leanings on various standards.

Often the people involved are far removed from actual engineers (of any
grade), and the engineering input is lost amongst the other bits once
the bureaucrats get hold of it.

The main basis of one EMC/EMI standard transpired to start from

        "must not interfere with a TV set from X metres"

No engineering or scientific basis came into it. Let alone how different TV
sets are to be susceptible to interference in different ways in different
Paul Carpenter          |
< PC Services
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Not necessarily.

It is continuous review that incrementally improves the quality of
standards ... and can also cause bloat.

Mike Page BEng(Hons) MIEE 
Quiet! Tony's battling the forces of conservatism, whoever we are.

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I'm glad you're looking for more than just the "CV benefits". I've
joined three professional societies because I feel each of them offers
me services and information that support me in my career and my own
interests in engineering. The fact that there's "more letters after my
name" is irrelevant.

As to which society (or societies) to join, it depends what you're after.

If you want a society that gives you a hell of a lot of high quality
*information*, then I'd say IEEE + IEEE Computer Society + IEEE CS
Digital Library is an absolute must.  I'm not sure how much postgrad
experience they mandate for full membership - I joined after having been
in the industry for several years. The IEEE loses out a little in Europe
in that despite its international membership it's still very much a US
organisation, and despite very much appreciating the amount of stuff I
get from the IEEE I feel rather more of a "consumer" than a participant.
It's easy to drown in IEEE journals, be selective about which societies
you join! (The IEEE Computer Society is a must; I also recommend the
Engineering Management Society just because its publications give you a
lot of interesting background). If you just want to join one society to
keep tabs on where the industry and academia are going, I would say the
IEEE is the one.

The IEE isn't quite the information giant that the IEEE is, but it's not
bad, and it has the advantage of a clearly defined route - if you want
it - to C.Eng in the UK or Eur Ing. (My own personal take on C.Eng/Eur
Ing is that membership of a professional society is largely *proactive* -
something you do because you feel that you gain by being a member; C.Eng
or Eur Ing is something that's largely *reactive* - it's a "tick list"
qualification that opens some career doors and tends not to be done until
a job demands it... - at least in the embedded software game anyway!)
It does have the advantage of Savoy Place in London which is a magnificent
establishment with the air of a Senior Common Room or a gentlemens' club.
If your primary aim is getting C.Eng or Eur Ing from the UK, then I'd
say the IEEE is your obvious choice.

Within computing in Britain I think there's a slight problem of overlap
between the IEE and the BCS. I was a student member of the BCS back in
the late 80s, and I must say it singularly failed to impress me - when I
decided to join a UK professional society the IEE still seemed a far, far
better fit for people working in embedded/realtime/technical computing and
for people working in small/medium enterprises - looking at the BCS it
still feels very tied to its "industry standard model" that is more
suitable for people working in big company DP, the public sector,
commercial computing, IT management etc.

Have you also considered the ACM? - back in the 80s and early 90s
it looked to be the most attractive society related to computing, but
(personal opinion only) I think it's got stuck at the formal/theoretical
end of computing and most of the interesting nuts'n'bolts stuff is going
on in the IEEE CS these days. Certainly CACM went downhill in the 90s and
I no longer try to scrounge copies of it!

Finally if your work is in any way involved with transportation
(telematics, avionics, embedded systems in any form of vehicle) the SAE
is worth joining. I freely admit that I'm an MSAE as much out of a
personal interest in many aspects of transportation as out of any
professional need though! - it's a bonus that my education and career
history qualify me for membership.

pete (MIEE MIEEE MSAE, for what it's worth)
-- "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

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