FT JOB: Embedded + Windows + FPGA + Los Angeles, CA

I know you asked about posting this and some replied that it was ok. But in reality it is not a good idea to clutter up the newsgroup this way. If a few do it where would the line be drawn. I have seen mail lists ruined from overuse by recruiters and hiring managers.

I am not flaming you, but my vote is to not allow this sort of posting here (as if anyone could stop it.) Maybe when I am ready to hire an engineer or two, I will change my mind... ;)

Mart>

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Rick "rickman" Collins

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Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
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Although I understand your point, I don't agree, for a few reasons:

1. It's fairly easy to draw the line between "acceptable" and "excessive"; one post a month is acceptable, for instance.
2. People posting under their real names are easily filtered if their content offends.
3. I'd much rather have headhunters post in c.a.e than call me on the phone and waste my day.
4. When looking for employees/coworkers, I'd much rather choose from the c.a.e gene pool than a newspaper advertisement. People who read here regularly - even if not posters - are inherently more interested in self-improvement and keeping up with field-related chatter than 9-5 drones who go home at night and switch off their skillset. Also, it's a very expensive proposition to hire people through a recruiter. I'd much rather go straight to the source.
5. I'm looking for work ;)

The REAL problem with commercial postings is not the postings themselves - they're quite infrequent here - it's the 5,000-message flaming threads that result from impolite commercial postings.

Rick,

Understood. That's why I asked. Years ago I made the mistake of posting a position like this at another newsgroup and managed to get entangled in a very ugly flame thread. I was acused of spamming the NG by the regulars ... when all I did was post one message to one group. I was, of course, guilty of not inquiring, spamming is a very different animal.

Anyhow, times are tough. Having had the experience of not finding work for over a year (about ten years ago) I can tell you that it isn't fun, at all. And, if you are in those shoes, any potential source of employment leads is highly valued.

What's nice about posting on a newsgroup like this is that, generally speaking, folks who will read and participate in these NGs care a lot more about what they do than those who don't. Not a hard and fast rule, of course.

I also thought of posting my message in the fpga group, where you know me from, but I've never seen any such activity there. I think I'll just try it here and move on to other means if it doesn't work out.

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Martin Euredjian

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"rickman"  wrote in message
news:3F967BB5.72D0A5A7@yahoo.com...
> I know you asked about posting this and some replied that it was ok.
> But in reality it is not a good idea to clutter up the newsgroup this
> way.  If a few do it where would the line be drawn.  I have seen mail
> lists ruined from overuse by recruiters and hiring managers.
>
> I am not flaming you, but my vote is to not allow this sort of posting
> here (as if anyone could stop it.)  Maybe when I am ready to hire an
> engineer or two, I will change my mind... ;)
>

In their defense, "spamming" means different things to different people. You are probably equating it with mass marketing. For many, including myself, *any* unsolicited and unwanted message is spam. I participate in other newsgroups where a job advertisement is unwelcome

- depends on the particular group.

However, you did exactly the right thing. After checking the newsgroups's charter, and finding that it says nothing on the subject, and after observing the group for a while (I'm assuming you undertook those two steps), you asked, and got a positive response. If another vote is needed, you have mine, though I lurk here more than I actively participate. I find an occasional (once a month) job advertisement acceptable.

-- Al Balmer Balmer Consulting snipped-for-privacy@att.net

Don't want to get into it again (brings back bad memories and got to get work done). The terms "spamming" is pretty well defined to mean "mass unsolicited email". The fact that people modify the term to have it mean "anything that bothers me" is well and fine, but in legal terms, these definitions are not supportable. People have gotten sued for spamming. It is a big deal and, aside from the annoyance, it costs the Internet infrastructure a great deal of money due to the load this junk imposes upon the systems, not to mention all the other issues. A message that I may not like, or that may be innapropriate or contrary to a newsgroup charter is not spam, it's just something that shouldn't have been posted.

I did quite a bit of research back then, even going as far as corresponding with some of the "fathers" of the Internet.

spam.

The problem with that definition is that, while it is very easy to apply to your personal email account, it does not translate to USENET very well. Virtually threads started on USENET are unsolicited. And, "unwanted" is much more ellusive. I may not care for a discussion on using 8085's in embedded systems. That's an unwanted message for me. However, it is not spam. I know, that example is a stretch, but, you get the idea.

I think that on USNET spam is pretty well defined and we've all seen it. It's mostly mass marketing of all sorts of things, from illegal software to drugs.

With regards to job ads, I find a strange dychotomy at play. Specialized newsgroups are places where people converge to talk about their field, learn, grow, help others and generally form a community around their topic of interest. Now, presumably, a good deal of these folks are employed in this field of interest.

However, for some strange reason, in some groups, having someone say "I like the sort of people who meet here. I have a job that I'm trying to fill and this is exactly the sort of person I'm looking for" seems to be regarded as a serious insult rather than what it is: recognition for the efforts and quality of the individuals who make the NG what it is.

Now, I understand that signal to noise must be maintained for it all to work. And I also understand that postings by head-hunters or agencies can be problematic because some of these folks will abuse the medium. On the other hand, an honest post coming directly from an employer sholdn't be a problem. Particularly at a time when jobs are not plentiful. In my case, I have two positions to fill. I don't forsee looking for another engineer for another year. So, one or two messages it is and that's it for a year.

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Martin Euredjian

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One post a month from 1,000 recruiters and HR staff memebers? Or just one post a month period?

Try that with the Yahoo embedded mailing list. There are tons of recruiters and they morph just like spammers.

How about they stick to the job hunting newsgroups?

That is the preference of the ones making the offending posts, not necessarily the regulars here.

Ahhhhh, the truth will out...

Nonetheless, if the original offending post were not made, there would be no flame trail or slime trail for that matter... :)

The point is that this group is not intended for that purpose, and the use of this group for job ads can easily harm the group (just as it has the Yahoo embedded mailing list).

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Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

I do understand everyone's position. But it is a bit like letting the nose of the camel into the tent. Where do you draw the line to keep the camel out? My concern is not how often you post, but how many like you might post.

Also I think it is a bit of a reach to expect 100's or even 1000's to read the message when it is tied to a geographical location that a very few of them might be interested in.

Aren't there newsgroups just for jobs? I am sure I have seem groups full of ads for engineers. What about using Monster or the other job web sites? Are they terribly expensive?

Mart>

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Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

I'm not sure about the effectiveness of the job newsgroups for these specialize fields. I've never even lurked at one of them, so I don't know. Monster and the other services are fine sources of good people. I'll probably start checking out a couple of these sites next week.

I see your points. You are probably right. It's far to easy to think "it's only me, one message" when, if everyone in the world looking for people posted just one ad per month you'd probably be overrun with messages.

In twenty years of being online this is my second try at posting a job ad in a forum such as this one. I don't think I'm going to do this ever again. I have not had any seriously bad responses, it seems to me that the nature of some of these usenet groups is that people just want to discuss their topic and go look for work elsewhere. I can understand that. For what it's worth, I am getting a good deal of response from good people interested in the job.

Thanks,

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Martin Euredjian

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aren't you always :-)?

How's the book? (sorry if everyone else knows but I haven't been able to read all thread lately)

Tim

In professional newsgroups, such problems tend to be self-correcting. The tolerance of the readers can change, and the de facto standards of the group along with it. In other words, if a previously accepted practice starts drawing protracted flaming sessions, it's time to quit.

What's considered topical and acceptable not only varies between newsgroups, it can depend on who introduces the topic. In many newsgroups, a respected regular can go off-topic in a way which would bring flames and dire threats of excommunication if a newbie did it.

-- Al Balmer Balmer Consulting snipped-for-privacy@att.net

Er, this is the defination today. But in the past it was not defined this way, and it was common to see it used to apply to any sort of constant background noise (ie, before the days when email spam really took off). The term was definately used if the same recruitment add show up once a day, or if a single recruiter posted multiple separate listings at once.

--
Darin Johnson
    My shoes are too tight, and I have forgotten how to dance -- Babylon 5

The trouble with the various jobs groups (I have been watching jobs.ct and jobs.me) is that they are totally jammed with headhunter parrotings, almost always specifying 10 years experience in MS .NET or something equally ridiculous. In many months I have found only one or two postings to which I responded, and the result was dead silence.

I would say the safe method is to participate in the newsgroups of interest, allowing the users to evaluate you, and vice versa. You can limit advertising to the sig line, and I greatly doubt there will be any objections. But make sure the location is available.

--
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@worldnet.att.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
     USE worldnet address!

I think it's more self-limiting than that. And it's almost a gray area between news and advertising. Example: Rick's periodic Embedded Linux newsletter postings in this group. I think most would regard them as being entirely on-topic. If I happen to come across some interesting story apropos embedding, and I post it here, that's pretty clearly on-topic. If I heard of some place hiring a zillion engineers, I'd probably post a pointer to it here and I don't think there would be many complaints.

Ah, but this isn't the Yahoo embedded mailing list, is it? And specifically I mean that it's not a listserver being pushed to my in-box, competing with correspondence of value and swamping important communications. It's a public discussion forum where I choose what I want to download and what I don't. If thine NNTP feed doth offend thee, then pluck out thy Ethernet connection. It's the difference between having your phone calls interrupted with advertising and having to flip past advertising in a magazine.

They're not focused enough (the newsgroups, that is). The problem is that if you make a baroque hierarchy of job newsgroups, recruiters won't be smart enough to crosspost to the right places for the best people to find the positions. A recruiter or end-user of labor who is smart enough to know that c.a.e contains the talent he wants, is already over several intellectual hurdles.

*shrug* I'm not proud. I'm too impoverished to be proud :)

Hi Tim,

To some degree, yes. However, things seem to snowball more urgently every day, these days. *sigh* I'm just about ready to give up, move to Iowa and farm potatoes.

Which one? :) My first one is doing OK, I guess. I don't have a good way of measuring how it's doing yet - no royalty statements. But I get a fair amount of correspondence from it. Apparently it sold out at the Embedded Systems Conference in Boston, which has to be good news. I'm cautiously optimistic about the story the numbers will tell when I get my first statement. Most importantly, I haven't been informed of any screamingly silly errors in the text, which is a big relief. No matter how many people have looked at a manuscript, you always get nervous when the printing presses get up a head of steam...

I'm working on "one and a half" books right now. Meaning, my submarine book is coming along nicely - though it's probably going to wind up considerably thicker than I originally intended - and I'm also close to working on a third book, which will actually be worked on concurrently with the second (but is unrelated to it). Basically, a cae regular mentioned my first book to a chip vendor, and that vendor is interested in quasi-commissioning me to write a book (for mainstream distribution, via my normal publisher) to help people get up and running with a fairly new chip. My publisher is pretty enthusiastic, too - so I'm just waiting for the eval hardware to become available (and some official datasheets, apart from the prerelease ones I already have, which are marked with dire warnings to burn before reading and swallow all ashes).

Chuck, I agree. I have a post on co.jobs right now and I think of the 250 or so current postings I am the only non-hh in the bunch.

I posted a job for an embedded sw position there a year ago and got about a dozen fairly qualified responses in a couple of days. I have reposted there again a week ago and have only one response.

For those interested here is the current post. I have been watching this thread and haven't yet decided whether to post here. Right now my thinking is yes, so maybe later today or tomorrow...

--------------- We are looking for software engineers with 5+ years experience in Embedded Software / Firmware Development using C, C++ and assembly language. Ability to read and understand schematics and technical device databook documentation a must.

Safety-critical product development and familiarity with avionics or medical documentation and test requirements a plus.

Non-smoking environment. Part time telecommute possible. Located in Lafayette, CO.

For all positions forward resume (preferrably in Word format) to snipped-for-privacy@exotech.com. Principals only, no agencies, no calls.

All the other stuff aside, do you work with Forth? I have an ARM design that will be done in forth and I am costing it out. The work will begin in a couple of weeks. Email me if you are interested.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

rick.collins@XYarius.com
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design      URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave                               301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110                 301-682-7666 FAX

Martin Euredjian wrote: ...snip...

Doh! That was the worst thing you could have said... ;)

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Rick "rickman" Collins

snipped-for-privacy@XYarius.com Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL

4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Your timing is poor. This is not a good time of year to be planting potatoes in Iowa. The corn harvest will be starting soon...

and

Hmm. Well, I revise that wishlist to driving to Mount Vernon (where they resurrected Washington's distillery) and brewing myself up some moonshine :) I prefer bourbon to vodka, anyway :))

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