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Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
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Hi Jonathan, Richard,

I apologise if I offend anyone here. Hope Richard is not offended by my
previous comments.

And thanks for your comment Jonathan.

There are large number of issues about releasing information in this
business which are undisclosed to public. Especially when the
information could be linked to intellectual properties or patents of ARM
or 3rd parties.  So potentially the NDA you have to sign is not only
one, but a number of NDA from different companies. Or if patent issue is
found, we have to stop signing new NDA immediately until problem is solved.

As you understand there is nothing I can do (or shouldn't even comment
in public) about how marketing people do their work. But in general we
are trying our best to provide information the best we can. I am not in
the position of handling enquiries of this nature, but you might try
write to Press Contacts staffs (http://www.arm.com/news/contacts.html )
to see if they have idea about how you can get hold of the required
information. I am quite certain that ARM will release instruction set
details to public, but possibly not on ARM website (as you might noticed
the current ARM architecture reference manual is published by ADDISON
WESLEY, and it not available on ARM web site).

If you don't mind I hope to finish this news thread here.
If anyone got questions regarding the Cortex or V7 architecture, it is
better to post it on comp.sys.arm as there are more ARM people reading
that newsgroup so you could get better answer from there.

Hope this helps.

Joseph

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Re: Does ARMs support bytes?

 >
 >>
 >>
 >> Joseph, it seems to me that it should be enough to hear that Richard
 >> is willing to apply his own personal time into this business area.  He
 >> already exists, is making his own way in the world, has a demonstrated
 >> level of competence, and is asking for very little by way of help in
 >> order to invest a serious amount of his own time.  Would you imagine
 >> any rational person would do that, without any prospects of evidence
 >> or belief that the time will pay off??
 >>
 >> It seems that Richard may have more confidence in the future of this
 >> processor than ARM's own people do.
 >>
 >> If I were Richard, I might be a little offended at the suggestion that
 >> I might have such bad business sense and hadn't already found that
 >> there was customer interest in the new CPU core before committing
 >> myself to the idea of fielding a new target for my compiler tool.
 >>
 >> I know you aren't marketing or sales here.  And I'm only yelling at
 >> you because you are here to hear it.  You cannot do anything about
 >> this.  But it does shock me to the core, Joseph, that ARM acts this
 >> way towards a legitimate compiler vendor.  (It's the kind of thing
 >> that makes me wonder if they have a personal axe to grind in the
 >> compiler arena or hidden associations they are trying to protect.)
 >>
 >> I see no excuse, none, for Richard to have experienced what he has
 >> from ARM, enough to say, "I asked several times for NDA and info but
 >> to no avail."
 >>
 >> Jon
 >
 >
 >
 > Hi Jonathan, Richard,
 >
 > I apologise if I offend anyone here. Hope Richard is not offended by
my previous comments.


  Joseph, I am sure Jon was not offended by yourself, but by the low
technical merit in ARMs policies..

 > And thanks for your comment Jonathan.
 >
 > There are large number of issues about releasing information in this
business which are undisclosed to public. Especially when the
information could be linked to intellectual properties or patents of ARM
or 3rd parties.  So potentially the NDA you have to sign is not only
one, but a number of NDA from different companies. Or if patent issue is
found, we have to stop signing new NDA immediately until problem is solved.
 >
 > As you understand there is nothing I can do (or shouldn't even
comment in public) about how marketing people do their work. But in
general we are trying our best to provide information the best we can. I
am not in the position of handling enquiries of this nature, but you
might try write to Press Contacts staffs
(http://www.arm.com/news/contacts.html ) to see if they have idea about
how you can get hold of the required information. I am quite certain
that ARM will release instruction set details to public, but possibly
not on ARM website (as you might noticed the current ARM architecture
reference manual is published by ADDISON WESLEY, and it not available on
ARM web site).


.. and I can see no technical reason for this chestnut either!
Could there possibly be some obtuse legal reason for this ?

 > If you don't mind I hope to finish this news thread here.
 > If anyone got questions regarding the Cortex or V7 architecture, it
is better to post it on comp.sys.arm as there are more ARM people
reading that newsgroup so you could get better answer from there.


a) I thought this was not publicly released info ?
b) Nice to see you anticipate Cortex to have zero relevence to embedded
apps & designers ?

-jg



Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 18:08:05 +0000, Joseph

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I've no horse in this race, Joseph.  So I just tried putting myself in
Richard's place and wondering about how I'd feel then.  When I took
that simple step, I noticed I had some very strong feelings and so I
wrote them out.  (Since Richard has a business here, it might be
somewhat more difficult for him to write publicly about such a
reaction, if he had one.)

I know you had NO intention at all of harm and were only trying to
think about constructive ideas to suggest.  So I don't mean to
suggest, in any way at all, that there was anything about your
comments other than trying to be as helpful as you could.

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I know.  But entering into such hidden relationships carries with it a
certain risk, too, in terms of outside perceptions.  At a minimum.
And I don't much like the sound of the words you had to write above to
remain accurate and honest with us.

It would be better if all relationships ARM has are publicly available
and readable.  I don't mean *before* they are entered into, as that
may be a critical negotiation period where the need for secrecy makes
sense.  But after the fact, yes.  Everything above board and in the
clear.  That would help a great deal when others must make and risk
their own situations in aligning themselves with some initiative they
want to promote.

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Totally understood!  I empathize that you had no inclination that I
might write what I did in response to an otherwise "helpful" comment
to Richard and now things rapidly spinning in a difficult direction.

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That's a given, of course.  Who wouldn't?  The question arises whether
or not the _right_ decisions are being made, in practice.  And there,
people can disagree.

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Another possible tip for Richard, I suppose.  I've a hunch it's not
going to open doors for Richard, though, that he hasn't already
knocked on.

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It seems to me that this is great for people (like me) who would
consider the idea of using a product after it is released.  But of
course, this will be of little help to people like Richard who need to
be out "priming the pump" a little, before the rest of us start
looking for a compiler tool.  If he doesn't have it ready when I'm
looking, and I buy someone else's tool and invest my time in that,
then he has forever lost out on the opportunity.  Bad news.

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I'm sorry I felt the inclination to write further.  But I did.
However, I fully understand why it makes little sense for you to
pursue this line here.  I might exactly the same thing in your shoes
and I don't expect a reply -- nor should you provide one.

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And not here?  Aren't those people in comp.sys.arm doing embedded
work?  Have they no presence here?

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My own 'resonances' began only because I wanted you to see and feel
how your last suggestion might have come across, if you put yourself
into the seat of someone who is putting their money where their mouth
is at.  I've been self-employed most of my adult life and have had to
worry about these kinds of things and there never is a day that goes
by that you aren't continually aware of the details of that business.
If you forget it, you find yourself looking for employment fast.

There is NO question at all in my mind that Richard wouldn't have even
bothered asking in the first place, if there wasn't already very good
reason for ARM to provide him with the information.  It's not like
Richard is some no-account, wanna-be with no track record to look at.

If I were him, I might take it kind of personal.  But perhaps that's
just me.

Jon

Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
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Yes you are, you could go up some floors to the Press contacts
department and inform them that Richard needs the information.
You could try to find out who the local ARM representative is
and make a personal phone call and convince them that it is in ARMs,
best interest that they release the information to Richard.
If you have no clout in ARM, then you might find some reasonable
fellow with some clout, convince him/her and let them do the job.

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--
Best Regards,
Ulf Samuelsson
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Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
[snip all for brevity :-) ]

Thanks Jonanthan and Ulf for your support and thanks Joseph for the
info. First of all, as a general statement, we small 3rd party vendors
get all sorts of responses from silicon manufacturers. For example, we
have good experience with Atmel and their product mixes are good for our
target audience so we try to support them as much as possible. I can't
say that for everyone else. Some vendors practically treat us like a
disease :-)

As for Cortex/Thumb-2 information in particular, I inquired the ARM 3rd
party vendor relation a few months ago, after I found out about Thumb-2
in the ARM conference, but no reply on how I can even get such an NDA or
NDAs. Some ARM marketing guy also responded to my request form I filled
out in the conference and I asked for the NDA but never gotten a reply
from him either.

As for why we would want such information. Obviously if no silicon
manufacturers jump on the bandwagon, then no, we won't be interested
:-). Fundamentally though, it takes at least 6 months to get a new
compiler out, and the more advance information we have, the better we
can plan. It's a constantly changing market place and as a business
person, supporting a new target is a big risk for us. I wish I can say I
am betting 100% but I have not. I understand ARM Inc. wishes to protect
its IP in terms of patent applications and such, but I can't say I am
not frustrated either.

The ARM compiler is a big gamble for us. Notice that the existing
vendors: Greenhills, ARM, IAR, Code Warrior have been in the ARM market
for a while, Keil and us are the only vendors writing our own compilers
recently. We take a risk of not jumping on the bandwagon on wrapping an
IDE on top of GNU for a variety of reasons, and obviously we think we
will be successful. We will see how it pan out  in the next year. I see
a new group of customers going for the ARM7 MCU, so that's our initial
audience. We will then move on to support other ARM variants. As
business grows, we will continue to improve our code performance and
look into the high end applications as well.Anyone can google
groups.google.com and see that we started out by selling an HC11
compiler for $39!!! While we are not a "big" embedded compiler
powerhouse, we have craved out a nice niche with good customer
reputation.. So we are doing pretty OK

--
// richard
http://www.imagecraft.com

Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
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  Perhaps Richard should ask again, and report back ?
  He could also ask whom he could talk with to get engineering samples
of Coretex silicon ( because ARM will know who has this 'nearly out' )-
some of the docs were from mid 2003, so that indicates
ES silicon is around about now....
  -jg


Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
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Bytes.

cheers,

Al

Re: Does ARMs support bytes?

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ARM has instructions to load bytes (with or without sign extension) and
store bytes.  IME I have never come across a compiler doing this.

To the OP: reading the document DDI0100E "ARM Architecture Reference
Manual" is highly recommended.

   Vadim

Re: Does ARMs support bytes?
On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 20:19:40 -0000, Vadim Borshchev

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I believe it is possible for a hardware memory interface to do this
"behind your back," i.e., even though the assembly loads and stores a
byte, larger chunks of memory may be read, modified and written back
by the memory interface hardware.

I don't know if any ARM chip will do this, and it's really only
critical to know about it in shared memory situations...

Regards,

                               -=Dave
--
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

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