Can 32-bit Architectures replace 8-bit Architectures?

While from a theoretical perspective, I tend to favor the adoption of

32-bit Architectures for their greater flexibility, I also dislike the wasting of resources that universal adoption would imply.

Hoping for some comment from informed people (myself not having any direct involvement in embedded systems), I present the following bullet points. (Note that I did not include the include the code size advantage that is sometimes claimed for 32-bit Architectures [Apparently, the older smaller Architectures do have a larger average code size for many uses, but I am not comfortable including such since it seems to be an artifact of such Architectures. On the other hand, I _did_ include Architectural legacy factors in favor of 8-bitters {legacy software, ISA familiarity, vendor relationships, and even lack of patent barriers}, so this might be a bit unfair.]. )

32-bit advantages: *Greater flexibility of use **Potential for future addition of functionality **Reduced pressure to optimize for resource utilization (lower development cost and potential for simpler [more reliable and more provable] design) **Potential for using the same part for multiple products (volume discounts, inventory control benefits [demand variability averaged over more products, parts usable for new products already in stock, less complex inventory--fewer disastrous errors]) **Potential for broader familiarity with ISA and systems within the company and throughout the industry **Potential for higher volume/lower cost from larger market *Larger processor **Encourages use of newer process and greater integration to reduce the fractional cost of the processor ***Potentially lower power consumption ***Smaller end-product form factor and potentially less expensive packaging/shielding ***Potentially greater reliability **Easier programming ***ISA support of more hardware-expensive operations ***Larger, orthogonal register set ***Greater performance (and possibly larger memory) can reduce required optimization effort *Simpler programming **Large flat address space **Reduced need for software extended precision arithmetic (possibly also reduced need for overflow guards with intermediate results)

8-bit advantages:

*History **Support of legacy device software **Existing familiarity with ISA and systems **Established vendor relationships **Better vendor understanding of market requirements (ISA and systems tweaked for target markets) **Expiration of patents (as well as simpler processor) reduces barriers to entry, increasing potential for competition *Processor size **Smaller processor encourages less extensive integeration ***Use of older process technology reduces device cost ***Easier to justify cost of custom additions ***Potentially less expensive field replaceable units ***Potentially greater isolation of failures **Potential for lower power consumption by work minimization and lower transistor count (leakage) **Potential for greater reliability (less to go wrong) *Lesser flexibility of use **Greater restraint against feature-creap **Greater incentive to optimize resource utilization (mainly beneficial for higher volume products) **Potentially greater reliability by less emphasis on microarchitectural and device techniques to increase performance, reduce area, and/or reduce power consumption

Since I am not directly involved with embedded systems, the above is doubtless missing some significant points. Let the sharing of information begin!

Paul A. Clayton just a technophile

Reply to
Paul A. Clayton
Loading thread data ...

To answer your question: Not really Don't really know where you get the connection of embedded 8-bit MCUs and ISA, in general there is none.

Check out this article about entry level 32-bit MCUs with some good reasons why / why not to switch from 8 to 32-bit

formatting link

Cheers srt

Reply to
Robert_Teufel

Pretty sure he means ISA = "instruction set architecture", not ISA = the old IBM PC expansion bus.

--
   Wim Lewis , Seattle, WA, USA. PGP keyID 27F772C1
Reply to
Wim Lewis

Oooops, my bad. Shouldn't have missed that.

Reply to
Robert_Teufel

I like the way the OP lists "potentially lower power consumption" for both the 8 bit and 32 bit processors... In fact, just about everything he lists is "potential". I don't get what he is talking about at all.

Rick

Reply to
rickman

[snip]

I don't mean to sound flippant but, how would you respond to a subject line of:

"Can VAX 11/780's replace 4-function calculators?"

The answer, of course, is, "it depends"...

--don

Reply to
D Yuniskis

On Sep 15, 6:34=A0pm, rickman wrote: [snip]

In their contexts, the statements make sense: a more advanced process tends to have lower total power and especially lower active power and the 32-bit implementations tend to use the newer processes. For 8-bit processors, work minimization (e.g., not performing a 32-bit addition when a 16-bit addition is sufficient) can reduce power consumption and a smaller transistor count can reduce the leakage contribution to power consumption.

In some sense, everything must be expressed as 'potential' because actual measurements would depend on the specifics of the end product's function and of the components chosen to make that product.

My goal was to get a feel for how real embedded systems developers view the trade-offs involved in processor selection--specifically with respect to register bit width--and what they anticipate for the future. E.g., it seems that the end-product price/cost does not follow Moore's Law, which implies that a fixed factor difference in processor cost that more closely follows Moore's Law will decrease in significance such that other costs like software development and value-add of increased features could marginalize 8-bit processors. (Obviously there are other factors. If the end-product must be revalidated from the ground up after any 'significant' change, the cost of transition could easily outweigh even significant factors favoring a change, especially if capital is tight for vendors of that product type--20% savings in the long run do not compensate for having to pay loan-shark interest rates on the development investment.)

Paul A. Clayton just a technophile

Reply to
Paul A. Clayton

On Sep 16, 10:48=A0pm, "Paul A. Clayton" wrote: []

The trad offs are application specific. I really doubt a company would decide to only use XX bit processors for ALL their embedded products for a "potential" few pennies savings over ALL product lines. This is what engineering is all about: choosing the right tool for the job, be it programming language or processor.

raw processor power is not always the solution to embedded systems problems. Does the volume discount really justify a 32bit processor for a system implementing a wristwatch??

Your conclusion doesn't follow. Like the wristwatch example, 8bitters will migrate to other applications. You call it marginalization, while I suggest this should be viewed as use of appropriate technology. They get replaced by 32bitters where those provide advantages of speed or compute power. They will not get replaced when the alternative provides excess features.

Heck, with all the color printers around, they still sell crayons!

Ed an engineer is one who can do for one dollar what any dam fool can do for two. --- Wellington

Reply to
Ed Prochak

The part on Atmel stuff seems plainly rubbish.

First of all, the AT91 is not mentioned on ARM based micros.

Secondly the part on the AVR32 is wrong in almost all respects.

It is quite well known that the AT91 products and the 32 bit AVR products are in two different organisations which can make their own decisions.

ATSAM3S is certainly lower power than the STM32F103.

As for features, it is really dependent on which SAM3 family we are talking about. So far only two families have been released, but people attending Atmel seminars know that more are in the works.

SAM3U with High Speed USB is still quite unique.

AT32UC3L now uses less energy than both the EFM32 and the STM32L in both active mode and in sleep.

Time to update the page!

--
Best Regards
Ulf Samuelsson
These are my own personal opinions, which may (or may not)
be shared by my employer Atmel Nordic AB
Reply to
Ulf Samuelsson

In my experience (as an embedded CPU architect and also looking a lot of software applications), the tradeoffs that trump all others are:

32-bit advantages:

- Large flat address space

8-bit advantages:

- High level of integration (memory and I/O in a single package)

Phil Koopman -- snipped-for-privacy@cmu.edu --

formatting link
Author of: Better Embedded System Software, Drumnadrochit Press 2010

Reply to
Philip Koopman

And try finding a 32bit cpu in a SOT-23 or a DIP8 or running a 16bit timer while sleeping at

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.