Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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I have an application which will require a highly readable outdoor display.
I am using an Optrex F-51553 but it isn't cutting it.

Has anyone seen a really good LCD / VFD / somethingelse display which works
REALLY WELL outdoors?



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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Any Non-color LCD display should be readily sun light readable.

vax, 3900
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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That's what the Optrex is, but it has a contrast ratio of only 6:1
and no spec on brightness.

BTW, what is  "viewing angle... 6 o-clock" supposed to mean???
- http://www.optrex.com/SiteImages/LitCentral/51553.pdf .

-- RM


Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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spec on brightness.

It sure would be nice if everyone just supplied things like brightness on
their datasheets for all their products, whether good or bad.  I hate
marketing departments.

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I wondered the same thing.  Perhaps it means it can only be read at dusk ;)



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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no
;)

It is the angle from which the LCD shows the highest contrast. 6 o'clock
means that it is best viewed from lower than right in front of it. LCD's
also have 12 o'clock directions. An LCD watch is typically 6 o'clock while a
table-top device with an LCD on the front is typcally viewed from a higher
standpoint and therefore has a 12 o'clock display. If you view an LCD from
the opposite direction, you will hardly see the segments turn black anymore.
The faint image that you see is the shadow of the segments on the
back-reflector.

Meindert



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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Who invented THAT standard?!  I have an embedded control panel for
an operator who may be at different places in front of the machine
yet still needs to see the screen. For TFT displays the maximum
viewing angle I have seen is +- 60 degrees or 120 side to side.

Top to bottom viewing is less important because the operator's
height doesn't change ;-)


Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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This is to do with VERTICAL viewing angle.

It is a fact of life to do with structuring the light to go through the
polarisers of the TFT itself, it is NOT a standard as such but the limitation
of TFT technology. However if you make the glass one way round the contrast
ratio is better when viewed below a line at right angles to the middle of
the screen, typical application Laptop screens, the other way round is
used for monitor displays and what has generically in the LCD market been
called industrial displays.

If you do not believe this happens look at your screen from above and below
the display and see the differences.

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Side to side viewing angle is easier to achieve, you will find the VERTICAL
viewing angle, for operators of different heights, is a much smaller range.

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All your operators are the same height?

Top to bottom viewing is IMPORTANT and causes colour changes. The amount of
times I see people trying to do digital photo manipulation on 18bit displays
and complain that the print out is wrong compared to the screen, when they
are in fact viewing the screen at the wrong angle.

I have spent too many years looking at these artefacts and the corrections
required on live video feeds, to know that in many applications it is
important in quite a few applications. Flat colour GUI interfaces without
images see the problem LESS due to the normally limited range of actual
colours over the WHOLE screen.

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Paul Carpenter        | snipped-for-privacy@pcserv.demon.co.uk
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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...


Now that I think of it, this was the best answer!

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Yeah, we know. But why is there no degrees :-) What happened to
4'oclock - happy hour?-)

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Of course; that is all pretty obvious.

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Twins!-)

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Certainly, but why is there not a range of 12, 1,2,3,4,5,6 o'clock? - RM



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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........

LCD makers like to use quasi standards, and hide as much as possible (even
in the data sheets) that may look bad. For example in various 'standards'
over time VGA meant 640 x 480 x 16 colour, SVGA meant 640 x 480 x 256+
colours upwards, then came XGA and other definitions. LCD makers use

        640 x 480       VGA
        800 x 600       SVGA
        1024 x 768      XGA
        1280 x 1024 }
        1600 x 1200 }   UXGA

However their vertical viewing angles are often ranges like -10 to +30
degrees, or -30 to +10 so rather than give absolute figures they know
the vertical viewing offset is a known attribute so they actually normally
only quote the offset direction for simplicity to sales people. For a lot
of applications like laptops that is sufficient as the angle of the display
is easily adjustable to compensate. My experience of LCDs is more that
those selling/making are more interested in hype and quasi standards than
speccing the parts.

I have before now had to measure what the viewing angles are with sensors
in a dark box to get actual angles!

--
Paul Carpenter        | snipped-for-privacy@pcserv.demon.co.uk
<http://www.pcserv.demon.co.uk/ Main Site
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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There's also the new laptop 1400x1050, and I've seen pseudo-"widescreen"
at various resolutions - 1280x800 being one. Weren't SGI LCDs available
in a rather blatantly widescreen 1600x900? ;)

1280x1024 is an odd one really, 5x4 rather than 4x3!

pete
--
snipped-for-privacy@fenelon.com "there's no room for enigmas in built-up areas"

Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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Well actually the problems of resolution, vertical viewing angle, and
how bright (direct or reflected) is common to colour and black and white (mono
or greyscale).

Actually I am amazed no one has mentioned the other daylight viewing
problem that most people over look...

If viewing in bright sunlight (especially outdoors) beware of operators
and polaroid sunglasses, (especially those using horizontal polarisation) as
it is possible to see nothing on the display as polarisation can cancel all
the display! Go back and check polarisation of light physics. I have seen
this effect on reflective LCDs on bench PSUs, when using sunglasses for a
particular experiment.


--
Paul Carpenter        | snipped-for-privacy@pcserv.demon.co.uk
<http://www.pcserv.demon.co.uk/ Main Site
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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It is easier (=cheaper) to make LCDs that have a "preferred view
orientation". Symmetric-angle LCDs are either:

1. Narrow angle, or
2. More expensive than asymmetric-angle LCDs.

LCDs with wide viewing angle are only justified in monitor and TV
applications, and often not even then, for the low-cost monitor market
at any rate.

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+/-80 degrees all around is commonly available, at least in the larger
sizes (17" and up). This is usually achieved with a special coating and
often at the expense of brightness.

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It is *very* important if you are either designing an appliance to work
in portrait mode, or if your appliance can be either placed on a desk or
mounted on a wall according to user preference (e.g. industrial
monitor).

--
 -- Lewin A.R.W. Edwards (http://www.zws.com /)
Learn how to develop high-end embedded systems on a tight budget!
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

...
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Thanks for the information.

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Yes of course (c.f. smiley). In our case the operator can adjust the
vertical angle once then moves from side to side.  I suppose in
other cases the operator might stand or sit making vertical viewing
angle important. - RM



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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It is not an invented standard, it is just a physical fact of LCD displays.

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Yes, and mine is even 170 degrees, both horizontal and vertical. But these
are different displays. such a display depends on special filters and a very
bright backlight, that's why you don't see anything on them when the
backlight is off. It's an entirely different technology than the Optrex and
other reflective displays.

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Ah, and they're all selected on the same length at their job interview?

Meindert



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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It means the display has an asymmetric viewing cone, and the view
angle BELOW dead-on horizontal is bigger than the view angle ABOVE
dead-on horizontal.

Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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A standard B/W LCD has no brightness from itself. All the brightnes it has,
comes either from a backlight of from the ambient light. And the more
ambient light it gets, the higher the contrast.

Meindert



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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Fair enough, but the Optrex has a builtin backlight ...


Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
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has,

Yes. But this backlight does hardly contribute to the illumination of the
display when outside. This backlight is only necessary to view the display
in the dark. Try to read something about reflective, transflective and
transmissive LCD's and it'll become all clear.

Meindert



Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?

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An LCD designed to be read in direct sunlight should not *have* any
brightness to be specced.  You want a reflective display for such
environment, not a backlighted one --- fighting the sun's incoming
illumination with a (battery-powered) backlight is a battle you can't
win in the long run, and it's not worth trying.

--
Hans-Bernhard Broeker ( snipped-for-privacy@physik.rwth-aachen.de)
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Re: Anyone found a GOOD 128x64 sunlight readable display?
John Harlow:
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What are your power requirements?

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The times I've worked on something for a harsh/bright environment
without power limitations, we used a VFD (mainly for the temperature
specs, but the brightness was also very good).  I've only used the
character displays, but I see graphic ones advertised these days.

Hmm... IEE doesn't seem to have graphic VFD's, but Noritake does,
didn't take the time to look further.

--
Charles Allen

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