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Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice

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    I wouldn't use ALP.  If you want the Forth code for doing so I'll gladly
supply a snippit.

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    Two issues, case statements in general have a significant overhead.  This
is especially true of little 8-bit microcontrollers.  We avoid case
statements in a number of ways determined by the application.  The most
common is by constructing a table in memory then using it's origin plus an
offset which is naught but an add instruction and exceedingly swift.

    Second is the historical problem of debugging C.  Neither emulators nor
simulators give you the single most important capability of Basic or
Forth, interpretative execution on the actual production hardware.  No
amount of emulation or simulation can possible predict circuit behavior,
not even SPICE circuit simulation can do so in all cases let alone a
compiler.

    By having a base of working, proven code you build incrementally with
each module fully proven and debugged before launching into the next.
Compare this with C, or any other compiled language, and ask yourself,
"How do I test this when it doesn't work?"  That is putting entirely too
much power and trust into the compiler vendors besides making life
unnecessarily difficult.

    The C programmers best friend is a disassembler.  Doesn't that seem like
a cognitive disconnect?
 
-- Regards, Albert
----------------------------------------------------------------------
AM Research, Inc.                  The Embedded Systems Experts
http://www.amresearch.com 916.780.7623
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice
hi, yes you right on the money with case statements.

Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice

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or

I am under the impression that the basic compilers/interpreters are good
tools for people who have an objective but don't want (or can't) get too
deep into the understanding of controllers, etc. Builders of model robots
and the like do pretty well with the parallax stamp. It is also a good
product for mechanical engineers, scientists, etc., who want to accomplish
tasks that are appropriate to those kinds of products without going
overboard in terms of having to learn to program in C or asm. -- Mike



Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice
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Several sets.

The one below shows C at 80% in 1997... the use of C in embedded work
has not deminished.  BAsIC and PL/M have declined. C++ increased.

I can dig out other surveys etc but most are in hard copy. this one was
electronic.



http://www.netrino.com/Publications/Bibliography

Subject: Re: Embedded Systems development languages?
Date: Sat, 04 Sep 1999
Organization: http://www.Microcontroller.com

Re: Embedded Systems development languages?

That has a one-letter answer:  C.  I would guess 75% of small-to-medium-
scale projects are done largely in C, occasionally with small hand-coded
sections of assembler.  Another 20% in assembler and Forth, and the rest
in obscure languages for certain esoteric applications.  Programmers
often claim to write these programs in C++ but their coding style is
generally just 'straight C'; they just happen to be using a C++
compiler.  A bigger project, running on PC-like hardware, is a different
animal and genuine object-oriented C++ Would probably be the language of
choice.  A very small project (less than about 1K of code) will more
frequently be written in assembler, purely because the processor it's
running on will be so small that hand-optimisation will be necessary.

This information is from 1997:
Programming Languages used in Embedded Development:
C                       80%
Assembly        75%
C++             49%
BASIC           15%
Fortran         8%
ADA             6%
Java            4%
Forth           1%
PL/M            1%
Other           2%

This is from a representative survey of 233 software engineers over
various markets. Note that this does not add up to 100%, as more than
one language may be used on a project...  Embedded C++ was not broken
out from C++.

Many surveys ask engineers what language they would be using 2, 3 years
out. In my opinion, those numbers are worthless - any engineer will tell
you he hopes to be hopes to be using the latest programming language!
80% of you are using fuzzy logic, right?


-Bill Giovino
 http://www.Microcontroller.com




/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice

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three

That wasn't my question and I doubt that you and I would have any
disagreement regarding this matter. I don't doubt what you are saying about
C being the prevalent language. It beats basic, hands down, when it comes to
doing serious work with controllers. However, there are many instances where
C is not required. Basic is a good general purpose tool that bridges the gap
for people who aren't necessarily f/w or h/w folks, but need to accomplish
specific tasks.



Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice
Hi, this is the problem with C on these small micros (1 of the problems
anyway). Dump it and go back to using the free assembler.

Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice

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Plus you will learn a *LOT* more about microprocessors writing in Assembler
- of course you can also learn a lot of patience  and humility trying to
sort out compiled code in assembler ;)

Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice
You will find articles about real-time and embedded software design
at:

http://www.eventhelix.com/RealtimeMantra /

Sandeep
--
http://www.EventHelix.com/EventStudio
EventStudio 2.0 - Go Beyond UML Use Case and Sequence Diagrams

Re: An Ametuer Who needs Advice
Greetings Everyone!

     Over the past few day I've been searching for online study groups
for Embedded sys/VLSI. Havent found any yet. Google gave me a lot of
outdated/irrelevent results. What I'm looking for is a group of
undergrads like me to fix up study plans and work on them. Just like a
school group. I want online groups so I can get info. from other
countries.

So, i'll be grateful if anyone of you could refer such a group.

Regards,
Devyn

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