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Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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Well, to tell you the truth: I worked for a Dutch company (being Dutch),
developing hardware and software for anti-shoplifting systems. About 11
years ago, this company was bought by a US company that was only interested
in the existing sales channels. So I was sacked, together with all
development and production personnel because this US company had cheap
development and production facilities in Puerto Rico. I then started my own
embedded development business. So, been there, done that, but got no
T-shirt.
At the moment I am selling a marine product all over the world. Oops, this
almost sounds like a typical story from the "land of unlimited
opportunities".....  :-)

Meindert



Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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Why   don't any of you consider the fact that those
technologically advanced countries when they were exporting
their products, it  affected the jobs in the countries that
were importing these hightech products?

Similarly why dont any of you start thinking that "Companies
sell products or services" & "individuals sell their
services". Companies are the customers for the individuals
"services". Like any customer, "Any Company" should have
their consumer rights about what they wish to buy. It is
only Fair that companies are given such rights.
   It never pays to "Demand" but it always pays to "BE IN
DEMAND"

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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I take it you've never shopped around for cheaper goods then? I'm as
guilty as anyone of expecting lower prices and this is what drives
companies to 'outsource' manufacture because they can't pay Joe America
a living wage (let alone a decent wage) to fit parts into a PSU or
refrigerator or car or <Insert Product Here> and remain 'competitive' in
the market. For competitive, you could also read 'pay shareholder
dividends'.
--
Clint Sharp

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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   I doubt it.  Imported workers would be paying N.American
rent, N.A. food prices, car expenses, and all the usual N.A.
cost of living, and they'd have to be paid accordingly.
They're much cheaper where they are.

        Regards.        Mel.

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them

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Anthony, believe me I have every sympathy with you - I think that
reckless outsourcing is economic suicide for companies for many reasons,
from diminishment of in-house expertise in core products, mistaken
belief that overseas engineers have the same commitment to quality as
in-house engineers, to dwindling domestic markets and ever-downward cost
pressures.

I have also been in a company in England that decided to shed its modest
new-products development department to meet short-term cost reductions,
so I appreciate the personal psychological impact.

I would take issue with the suggestion that *all* importation of foreign
workers is a bad thing for America. I am of course biased - I spend
every other month in the US assisting with new product development.

Since I first started working with that company, I have proved that a
product family was feasible, leading to approximately forty new jobs for
US workers; I have trained fifty or sixty engineers in the use of ARM
processor and passed on many tips for optimal programming that core, and
have made many contributions that have improved the performance of the
product and the spin-off products now in development.

Now, would it have been better if I had spent my time working with a
Korean or Japanese competitor? Believe me, unlike US immigration, they
don't habitually haul me into an office and interrogate me for half an
hour when I'm entering their countries to present a legitimate training
course. Trust me, your border guys are definitely trying to dissuade
assistance from foreign workers ;)

Peter.

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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http://www.bkprecision.com/www/np_searchmodel7.asp?lf=Single+Output+DC+Power+Supplies
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Boo-hoo-hoo.

All that's happening is the free ride is over and reality is catching
up. You can either pay more for goods manufactured by high-salaried
Americans, or you can get the stuff made overseas at the cost of U.S.
jobs, or you can take a pay cut. Either way, your disposable income is
going down to the same level as everyone else's. Fair is fair.

--
Joe Legris


Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them


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With all due respect Joe, you don't know what you are talking about.
Unemployed people do not have disposable income.  They also do not buy
luxury items regardless of the price.  They are also not being offered
pay cuts to keep their jobs.  IOW, you don't seem to know anything about
how outsourcing is implemented in this country.


Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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I think Joe is right. It is all about competition and free market and
that includes us engineers as well. Every product has to have a
competitive advantage over the others, otherwise there is no market
for it. Engineering capabilities are a product in the same sense,
which has to find its marketplace. That's tough but true. If there is
no advantage left in quality, then cost will have to fall. These are
very basic facts of a free market.

To a certain degree, the market can be controlled, though. The US,
like many other countries, do that by issuing working visa and by
charging import duty on imported goods. On the long run, market forces
will always prevail, however. Protecting the domestic market, will
hurt the domestic industry, as they don't have the need to be
innovative and to remain competitive. They will fall even further
behind and so protectionism is the beginning of a vicious circle. In
Germany we have seen such a textbook example with former East Germany:
there was no competition and so they simply went completely bankrupt.

We all have to accept that competition is a good thing. It enables us
to achieve the best possible results. Education is of paramount
importance for competition. We have to face the fact, at least in
Germany, that education is mediocre at best. My perception from the
distance is, that it is not much better in the US, if at all. Since a
few weeks, we have quite a few new members in the EU and we have to
accept that their schools are often at least as good as ours. So don't
fool yourselfes by thinking that those newcomers are less good
engineers. They are not and actually they are proving it every day.
And even more, they are hungry!

Let me just add one example: it must have been about 12 years ago,
when our company had a booth on the Electronica fair in Munich. The
borders to the east were already open and we had a small delegation
from Poland visiting our stand. Internet was not yet very common and
so they collected a whole pile of databooks. And guess what, the next
day they returned for asking very detailed questions, which proved
that they must have read the databooks on the evening before, while
everybody else was either visiting Munich or having a sundowner at the
hotel. That has impressed me a lot.

So what can we do? Very simple, like always: become better than our
competitor!

For the above argumentation, I have decided already a long time ago,
always to purchase the best possible product, independent of its
origin. It would be a bad service to any domestic company, if I
subsidized their mediocre products. (I should add that there are a few
exceptions to this rule, which we shouldn't discuss here: slavery and
child-labour, to mention just two. But I expect politcs to boycott
imports from those countries).

Michael

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
Hi all,

- I'am living in Switzerland -

Concerning what is happening at the moment in the
US, it happens in Europe as well. However as it always
has been, that the growth in the industry is not as strong
as it is in the US, the downside - loosing jobs - is not
going as fast as it seems it is in the US. What is really bad
all over the world is, that well educated professionals with
many man years of experience are loosing their jobs.

What is interesting to see, is that in ASIA for example
they absoltutely don't care about this. If - today -
you want to export or to sell something in this area, you
have to give away part of your knowledge. Next time the
engineers in ASIS build it your product without you ...

As you can see what is Europe and will Europe be all
about?

It's about having a big local market, like the US one,
and for this market you will see sooner or later the 'door' for much
cheaper products from the far east being 'closed', in order to save
working places here ...

I don't know if that is good or bad in the longterme,
however it's understandable ...

And this will happen anyway completely independent of
any WTO ... or whatever laws... at some point people
don't care anymore ..

Best Regards
Markus Meng (Switzerland)

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Michael Kr?mer) wrote in message
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Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them

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catching
high-salaried
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U.S.
income is
buy
offered
about

I just have a few questions:

1) Would your country allow corporations to force employees to work
60-80 hours/week without compensation for the overtime?
2) How much annual paid vacation is typical of an employee just starting
with a corporation in your country?
3) Would your country allow a corporation to dictate that half of your
annual vacation time will be taken on their schedule thru annual plant
shutdowns?
4) Does your country allow illegal immigrants to displace nationals?  Do
they forgive them when caught, or are they deported?


Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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The legal limit of working time is 10 hours per day and I don't think
that there is a limit on the number of working days per week. For
shift workers it is probably legal to work 6 days with 10 hours each.
Working time is rather well regulated for blue collar workers, as the
unions are still very strong there. That is very different for
engineers, doctors or nurses. They work sometimes much more than the
38 or 40 hours which are written in their contracts and they are often
not paid for overtime. Other than the legal limit on working time,
which is not enforced in the mentioned examples, there is no legal
obstacle for not compensating overtime. It is after all the free
decision of the employee to work longer. He could deny that request
and the employer would not have any legal means against him. The
employee is also rather well protected against being fired for such
reasons. That's different from the US.

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For engineers it is between 25 and 30 days. That is independent of the
length of employment, so it is the same for a starter as for one who
already works since 30 years for that company.

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I believe that it is perfectly legal to dictate that all vacation time
is taken on their schedule. I'm not aware of any company that does
that. A working contract is a cooperation, after all, and everyone
must be happy. But some companies have plant shutdowns and force the
employees to take some of their vacation then.

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No, they do not get a working permit and there are regular raids in
the typical businesses (restaurants, building constructions, farms).
Deporting is very difficult in Germany due to our history. People have
to request asylum and then they get social welfare and have a lot of
legal support. That is one of the problems of this country. Meantimes
we spend one third of our GNP for social welfare (mostly not for
immigrants though). The figures were just published yesterday, it is
in the order of 7000 USD per person (from child to old man/woman) per
year.

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them

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I think that qualifies as the understatement of the year.  ;-)

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starting

Most here get two weeks (10 days) when starting out, and one of which
will be taken when the company decides. (HP current policy of annual
shutdown)  Of course if you work for HP in france you will get a two
years severance package when layed off.  You will also start with a
months vacation per year, as in your country.

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your
plant


Do


Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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As a born & raised in the US citizen, I don't see a problem with
outsourcing. What I see a problem with is the management types doing the
outsourcing. I worked at a very big high tech company who opened a site in
India. Management thinks "I can get 3 workers for the price of 1" and just
start lobbing projects over the wall without training assuming they'll get
the same quality. It has of course come back to bite them and will continue
to do so until the education becomes the same across the board (and don't
tell me that it's the same everywhere - many countries who have recently
entered the high tech industry are, in my experience, WELL behind any
western schools and more importantly - experience). This of course will
change over time.

And I also don't think that US citizens have some God given right to their
jobs. It's as if there are those who are whining about outsourcing are
complacent in their jobs and don't want to better themselves. I see the
.bomb era as a good thing - it got rid of a lot of trash that shouldn't have
been employed by the tech sector in the first place. I just had to laugh at
a recent news segment where several students who just graduated college with
CS degrees were whining about having a tough job market when they got into
computers and thought it would make them a lot of money. Justiced served,
IMHO.

-->Neil



Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 21:44:14 -0700, "Neil Bradley"

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Most of the complaints I hear come from those who no longer have jobs.
I don't know what you mean by "don't want to better themselves."
Ambition and goals really have nothing to do with it, on an individual
basis. Highly competent, eager people who would like nothing more than
to "better themselves" find themselves walking the street trying to
find a job not better, but not too much worse than what they had.
Blaming the problems on the workers affected is not productive.

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Huh? It was the dot coms that brought the trash into the tech sector.

--
Al Balmer
Balmer Consulting
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Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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I mean there are a lot of people who can only do things like phone support
and other "fix your computer" types of things and don't wish to become
engineers or "better themselves" to make them more palettable for
employment. Not *ALL* jobs are going overseas.

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Except insofar as being able to get better jobs.

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I'm not blaming the problems on the workers, merely pointing out that people
have an opportunity to become more marketable to perspective employers.

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have

Exactly.

-->Neil



Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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What do you think would happen if everybody did this? ...
Rigth, they would have to dump even more of your "fellow countrymen".

Meindert



Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
[snip]
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What are we, your Spanish competitors, supposed to feel? We earn about
half as you, but twice as the Indians. These are the effects of
globalization. You and I are not better than the Indians, we are
richer. And more expensive. Be prepared to downsize your living
standards. And expect more non-Americans to read these newsgroups. As
for myself, I think I'm going to learn Chinese, just in case...

--
Ignacio G.T.

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
snipped-for-privacy@evomer.yahoo.es (Ignacio G.T.) writes:

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And possibly better trained, have more experience, and are better at
innovation and quality.  But this isn't what companies want.  They
want cheap quality at a cheap cost.  Management has long believed that
tech workers are just interchangeable components, and that anyone
can be an engineer, and this is just more evidence of that.

Of course, I don't want there to always be a rich country versus poor
country world.  But does it have to happen overnight by selling out
the workers that created the wealth in the first place?  The way
things appear to be headed, we're only going to increase the divide,
with the wealthy in the US becoming even more wealthy.  Why not raise
up the poorer countries instead of returning to the era of robber
barons?  Why not encourage labor safety laws in the countries we
export work to, and discourage child labor and sweatshops?  You don't
have to push everyone down to create an equal level, you can raise
everyone up instead.

--
Darin Johnson
    "You used to be big."
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Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them
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This may not be the case....   The last set of stats I saw said that the
majority of US engineers don't have (appropriate) degrees. The Indians
do AFAIK.  

SO the US may not be better trained. Experience is probably true.
Innovation could be argued al day... The US did not invent many things
it things it did.

Quality.... maybe. there are more CMM5 companies in Indian than anywhere
else.  However there are also a lot more sweat shops. Like anywhere else
you pay your money and take your choice!

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They want cheap costs (as long as the product works)  

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Yes this is why in the US many "engineers" are unqualified apparently.
This is also why there are moved (globally in different forms) to
register/license/certify engineers. Particularly with the increase in
embedded systems in areas where people could sue!


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Steady! that's commie talk :-)

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Definitely communist! :-)

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There are lots of people trying to do that but corporations (in general,
not just US ones) do not want it because it hurts their profit margins.
The problem with any levelling process is that to bring those at the
bottom up a bit there (always AFAIK) will be a loss of living standard
at the other end.

You only have to look at discussions on some of the other NG's to
realise that many Americans will kill anyone and everyone on the planet
rather than lower their living standards.



/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England    /\/\/\/\/\
/\/\/ snipped-for-privacy@phaedsys.org       www.phaedsys.org \/\/
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Re: Agilent now dumping its U.S. employees -- I'm going to boycott them

[big snip]

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That's the point, Chris. But let's be fair: I don't think that this
attitude of American people is essential (i.e., related to their
origins or ideals), but merely circumstantial (because their economics
is at the top... for now). When China succeed to USA as the leader of
the world, we will see (well, perhaps not we, but our sons or
grandsons) the same attitude in the new rulers.

P.D. Sometimes I vote to the Communist Party :-)

--
Ignacio G.T.

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