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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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As I said, I'd expect toolkits for larger processors to be larger -
libraries, examples, help files are all significantly larger.  As for
what could be eliminated on Code Worrier for the 6805 - practically all
the "beans" could be dropped.  I can see the point of trying to have a
set of ready-to-use components with a fairly consistent interface for
different targets, but they are wildly unsuitable for small 8-bit
devices (the ADC "bean" took about 1.5k out of the 4k flash on the
device - a single line of C code did pretty much the same job).



Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:54:17 +0200, David Brown
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It's more a function of the quality of the libraries.  It goes back to the
old "hello world" test, looking at the generated code to see how much
irrelevent bullshit gets included.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
snipped-for-privacy@PremoveOBthisOX.COM says...
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One programmer's irrelevant bullshit is another's initialization code.

I expect that most embedded programmers will know that

printf("hello world");

will produce a different result from

puts("hello world");


Of course the result will also depend on whether the
program has to run on bare silicon or can take advantage
of a bios or more complet OS.   I generally start with
bare silicon, so I'm not surprised when the program has
to link in serial port drivers, initialization code,
etc. etc.


For a system like the 6805,  I would  probably consider the
'beans' to be example code and extract only the essence.
Codewarrior was probably a better system back when it
was only generating code for the M68K systems or systems
of equivalent register complexity.

I've never been a big fan of 'one size fits all' tool
vendors.  That's why I use tool sets from IAR for the
Atmel ARM chips,  Codewarrior for the M68K, Imagecraft for the
MSP430 and GCC for an ARM-Linux system.  (The latter
was not my choice, though).  I've also used Keil for the
8051 series---but I'm not sure I'd pick them for an
ARM compiler vendor.

Mark Borgerson

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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steps
draw a
a word

Not to mention the 4 seconds it takes on a multiple GHz machine to empty the
recycle bin with only one tiny file in it....

Meindert



Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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Software gets slower faster than hardware gets faster.

c.f. Vista.

--
        Przemek Klosowski, Ph.D. <przemek.klosowski at gmail>

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:05:09 GMT, przemek klosowski
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And microsoft does it faster than the chip makers can.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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ail.nospam> wrote:
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But what they produce is called clogware, not software. :-)

Didi

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http://www.tgi-sci.com
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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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    The ironic thing is Microsoft wrote part of the firmware for the
Commodore 128.


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:56:39 -0400, Michael A. Terrell

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no wonder it was a failure.
The probably had something to do with that commadore 64 floating around that
couldn't run any commadore 64 software.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
AZ Nomad schreef:
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Actually sales wise it was a reasonable success.

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Percentage wise even a larger part of the Commodore 64 firmware was
written by Microsoft. I don't recall a Commodore 64 that couldn't run
Commodore 64 software. The Commodore 128 did run Commodore 64 software
pretty well too.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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   The only case I know of like that was software that used undocumented
op codes in the early 6510 CPU.  That isn't Mos Technology, Commodore or
Microsoft's fault.  It was the programmer who used codes the 6510 manual
told you not to use.

   The Commode 128 was successful enough to spawned the 128D, and the
never marketed 256 version that was being manufactured when they were
shut down and liquidated.

   BTW, Microsoft wrote the BASIC versions used in most Commodore
computers.


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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The 6510 (and the 8502 used in the C128) supported the same undocumented
opcodes during its lifetime. The only real compatibility issue I'm aware
of involved an undocumented way to play samples on the sound chip, which
no longer worked with newer revisions of that chip.

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With the exception of the Amiga line, all Commodore computers used the
Microsoft BASIC interpreter, just like many other home computers.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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   Sorry, but some production runs of the 6510 didn't support all the
undocumented op codes.  i had a friend who was into graphics, and his
6510 died.  I had to try over a dozen chips to find one that worked with
that program.  Everything else we tried ran on all the other 6510
chips.  I repaired hundreds of c-64 & C128/128D computers at the
component level.

 
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   They had different levels though.  When they went from the PET seers,
to the Vic-20, they scaled it way down.  The c-64 was a little better,
but the C128/D was a lot better.


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
Michael A. Terrell schreef:
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Hmmm...this the first time I heard of this (used to be in the c64
scene). Especially demo's relied heavily on undocumented features, but
nevertheless there were few compatibility issues.

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That would be the C65, the few hundred remaining units are nowadays a
collectors item which sell for over $1000 on eBay.

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The latest PET had BASIC 4.0. The VIC-20 and the C64 used BASIC 2.0,
can't think of anything in the C64 BASIC that the VIC-20 didn't have.
Interesting background information about why which basic was chosen for
a certain computer and why the C128, unlike earlier models, displayed
the Microsoft copyright message can be found in the book "On the Edge -
the spectacular rise and fall of Commodore".

(comp.sys.cbm would be a better place to discuss this)

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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that
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   I only found two out of over 100 6510 that would run his program.  he
contacted the software company abut it, and they admitted that it was
written on a developer's pre production computer, but that they would
not give him the current version, or even a discount, so RObert
disassembled the software and re wrote the bad parts to work on any
6510.

 
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   Try running Basic programs written for the PET on either. They were
stripped down so their business software won't run on the cheaper 'home'
models.


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  I used to visit there, but there was very little traffic that wasn't
cross posted from British Sinclair users.  It had more trolls than
regulars, so I gave up.


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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Like I said; the PET had BASIC 4.0 where the VIC-20 and C64 had BASIC
2.0. The most important difference between the two is that BASIC 4.0
(PET) had disk commands. The advantage of BASIC 2.0 was that it could
fit with the kernal in just 16 KByte. The VIC-20 and C64 were designed
(in very short time) to be as cheap as possible, cutting corners where
possible.

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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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There is an annual Sinclair/Commodore flame war, but for the rest it's
mostly relevant stuff in my experience.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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Definitely something of a pinnacle of 8-bit computers, the 128D.

The Apple IIGS certainly wasn't bad either, although of course that was
already a mixed 16/8-bit CPU.



Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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   Commodore developed their C-256 based on the Western Design Center
65816 16 bit CPU, but it was never on the market.


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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I hope it does so in reasonably prompt fashion.
I think my Motorola cable box/DVR runs embedded linux.  It regularly
gets so far behind (15-30 seconds) in processing commands from the
remote control that it's usually best to simply walk away for a few
minutes until it catches up!
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Cool---but hopefully not when it's supposed to be warm!

Mark Borgerson



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