Affordable PCB Layout Software ??? - Page 6

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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
wrote:
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such
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for
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I've occasionally found lynx useful from machines that I only have ssh
access to.  Text-based utilities are very useful for remote administration.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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And a high speed (> 1 mbit/s) connection.  Just try surfing the net at
56k nowadays.  you would think you were on a small lake for the
"surf".
  

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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I use a 64k connection, and it would be less of a problem if web
designers didn't assume that one had a T3 or better connection.

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--
ArarghMail808 at [drop the 'http://www.' from ->] http://www.arargh.com
BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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Perhaps, linux doesn't make the fastest desktop computers run like shit.

Maybe with 10ghz of cpu and 20GB of ram vista might run OK, but otherwise
it's a steaming mountain of pig shit.

And adobe's latest reader runs just fine under linux on my 1.4 ghz laptop
with a typical 5200rpm laptop drive.  If MS wrote it, you could count on it
being unable to run on such hardware.


A $250 computer from 5 years ago will run extremely well w/ linux where
vista won't run at all.  

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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   Who WANTS to run Vista on a five year old computer?


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:55:25 -0400, Michael A. Terrell

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Who wants to run vista on any machine?

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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   You are final;ly catching on! ;-)


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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 08:55:25 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"

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Who WANTS to run Vista on anything at all?  I sure don't. :-)
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BCET Basic Compiler Page: http://www.arargh.com/basic/index.html

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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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Consider that Adobe needs 100MB hard disk space for just a reader, where
others can produce a PDF reader that takes less than 1 MB and starts at
least 10x faster, and you still believe Adobe is producing efficient
software?

Ever tried Lotus Notes, or CM Synergy (nowadays both IBM), or Borland
C++ Builder and still believe Microsoft is the only company that
produces crap software.

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And sometimes you can't get Linux to install at all, or only without
wireless, ACPI...etc.

Your hate towards Microsoft has apparently blinded you. I don't like
Microsoft, or their products, but the fact is most software companies
produce utter crap (especially the bigger ones), and some manage to
produce even worse crap than Microsoft. And let's face it Windows sucks,
Linux sucks, they only suck in different ways. Choose your poison.



Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???

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Go downtown with a guitar and a bucket.
Maybe somebody will toss you the penny that 100MB costs.  Actually,
you'll have 2/3rds of the penny left to buy another 200MB.

Newsflash:  files on a hard drive do not every one of them get loaded for
an application to function.  Stuff like help files, drm-shit, infrequently
used functions just sit on the hard drive until the user needs them.

Adobe reader runs fine and fast on a 1.4mhz laptop.  

Are you still using a 200mhz P1 as your main desktop?  

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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You missed the point entirely, but I guess that should have been
expected. Maybe you understand when you grow up.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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Actually, it was you who missed the point.  I was pointing that vista is
dog slow on the fastest hardware and you pointed out that linux is
bloated as well.  I mentioned that linux works just fine on hardware
1/4th as fast as current machines, and you pulled out bullshit story
about adobe being bloated.  

Maybe on a 200mhz P1, it is too bloated to run.  Compare that to vista
that is too bloated to run worth a shit on a 6ghz 2gb machine.

You're just argueing for the sake of argueing.
Kplonk>

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You claimed that only Microsoft produces inefficient software, and that
all other companies use OO programming (why should I care as a user?)
and produce more efficient software. If that were true that would be
nice, I would only have to avoid Microsoft and I get good quality and
efficient software. Unfortunately the reality isn't that simple, and
Microsoft far from the only sinner.

When confronted with counter examples, your argument is that bloat isn't
a problem (except apparently when it is from Microsoft). Funny comming
from someone posting in in an embedded newsgroup, where in a typcial
embedded project every penny counts and throwing more powerful hardware
isn't often an option.

Anyway when I replace my desktop machine (which is already much more
powerful than your '1.4mhz laptop') with a machine that has at least
twice the processing power, I expect it to be at least as responsive as
the machine it replaces, not slower. I guess I'm funny that way.

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The equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting 'nah,
nah, I can't hear you'. Very mature.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:37:15 -0500, AZ Nomad

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That must be really old. I thought my 4.77 MHz T1000 was slow.

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Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
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snipped-for-privacy@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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For an example a little closer to the group's topic - Code Worrier for
the Freescale 6805 devices was something like a 600 MB download, and 1
GB install, for a compiler for a device with a couple of KB code space.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
snipped-for-privacy@hesbynett.removethisbit.no says...
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The sise of the IDE has little to do with the size of the code space
on the target.  The size of the compiler also has little to do with
the processor code space.


Mark Borgerson


Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
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That's not entirely true - for a bigger and more powerful target, you
could expect larger libraries (with corresponding files such as
documentation), more IDE features (such as a more powerful debugger
taking advantage of the target's features), etc.  Green Hills for the
ColdFire, for example, weighs in at about 400 MB - a lot of that is from
dozens of copies of very large static libraries for each target
variation.  The actual useful bit of Code Worrier, the compiler, is
pretty good, but the rest is an impressive quantity of bloat.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
snipped-for-privacy@westcontrol.removethisbit.com says...
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I just took a look at the CodeWarrior demo CD for the ColdFire
architecture.  The total data on the CD was  303MB.   That seems
comparable to the Green Hills package---although the 270MB .cab
file could expand quite a bit on installation.

I still use Codewarrior  8.0 for the PalmOS to compile M68K code
for Persistor data loggers.  The Codewarrior folder with the
IDE, help files, compiler and libraries is just 88MB.  The HTML
help and manuals are about 45MB of the 88MB.  Perhaps this was
one of the last pre-bloat versions of Codewarrior.

By comparison, the IAR Embedded Workbench for the Arm processor
occupies about  435MB of disk space.  Of that, the bin folder
is about 35MB, while the doc and examples folders add up
to more than 200MB.  The rest goes to libraries, include files,
drivers and  about 62MB for a sample version of their PowerPac
RTOS.


What elements of Codewarrior could be eliminated?   After all one
programmer's help files are another's bloat.


Mark Borgerson


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Disk space is irrelevent unless you are running on a 10GB drive which is
rather silly in this age where 500GB drives sell for $80. Other resources
are far more important including the memory footprint, number and frequency
of drive accesses such as to load ten thousand data files needed for
operation, and lastly cpu usage.  450GB of application just sit on the hard
drive and really don't matter one bit.

Re: Affordable PCB Layout Software ???
snipped-for-privacy@PremoveOBthisOX.COM says...
wrote:
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otherwise
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laptop
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where
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The point about disk spacebeing irrelevant is true---especially if half
the disk footprint is help files and example code, as is the case with
the IAR system.  I don't see memory footprint as much of an issue
either--when a recent PC ought to be able to malloc()  a
few hundred megabytes  for symbol tables,   etc.

The comment about requiring many files is valid---especially as
a complex C program may require  LOTS of header files.  There's
no reason any particular file should have to be read more than
once, though.  Read it once and cache it in RAM.

My largest embedded programs may get to a few hundred KBytes of
object code.  Compiling them generally takes only a few seconds--
even for a full rebuild, so I don't see CPU usage as a major issue.
This is especially true as my development PC has dual cores---
one of which is sitting idle most of the time anyway.


Mark Borgerson




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