There is no project manager so tell me where I should send the money if I use Eclipse.
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
No USB.
I used their parametric search, clicked UART, USB, and I2C. I only see 28 and
32 pin packages. "Dig I/O" bar only shows between 21 and 25 I/Os.
In that case I'd go for TI's MSP430. I've used those for a while for various projects.
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
can do
hat's
?? Pasted from their web site :
28 and
...Then don't use their 'parametric search' ;)\
{ Tho USB & 40 io seems to findn the 340 just fine from here.... ?}
Unless your time is worth nothing the purchase price of a tool is only a (small) part of its total cost.
Then show me a tool which doesn't require time to learn how to use it.
Eclipse being free doesn't mean it is bad. Eclipse is funded by huge companies like Nokia, IBM, SAP, Oracle, etc, etc. Its most certainly not a hobby project. Eclipse has been specifically designed to aid software engineers developing complex pieces of software. There are many different IDEs and the majority of them are not very productive to work with.
For most compiler vendors the IDE is not part of their core business so they invest as little as possible in developing their IDE. Note that many have already moved to Eclipse or will do so in the near future.
Semiconductor manufacturers like to show off with simple IDEs to win customers for their microcontrollers. Don't get fooled by shimmering beads and mirrors. At some point you will want to take software development to a next level and you'll find the simple IDE to be inadequate (=time wasted on learning how to use it). Or you'll move to a different platform (=time wasted on learning how to use the specific IDE).
The whole point of Eclipse is to learn once and use it for all languages on all platforms. The same goes for GCC (and binutils). GCC works the same for all targets. If you know how to use GCC for an MSP430 you know for 99.9% how to compile for LPC2000.
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
do
..but it's such a neat tool! ;-)
It finds it fine if you click on USB MCUs, too. Dumb site.
I'll certainly look into it as a replacement for the Atmel part we're using. $99 for the Dev Kit is certainly reasonable, too. Thanks!
Depends how you value your time.
-- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
In message , Nico Coesel writes
This is complete crap.
Again crap and conjecture not based on reality.
Iagree... This is why most silicon vendors do a GGC compiler so it is "free" to use their MCU's. They don't give a damn about GCC or Open source they just want the cheapest possible start up cost to get their silicon in use.
In what way?
The answer to that is "badly"
-- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Some customer complaints for example:
Well, check your reality:
-- Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply indicates you are not using the right tools... nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.) --------------------------------------------------------------
Ok so you have one person wanting to use the Keil compiler with eclipse. However I can probably fined many more who tell me Eclipse is crap.
You said: IDE is not part of their core business so they invest as little as possible in developing their IDE
Which is complete crap. In fact Keil developed the IDE for their ARM compilers BEFORE they did the compiler.
It would help if you could stop to read what was written. Freescale, NXP, Renasas etc are silicon compnaies and are looking for the least expensive way of getting the cheapest tools packaged with their silicon to get people to try and use their silicon.
When they have decided on the silicon it is expected they will move on to professional tools. The Tools packaged with the silicon are usually coasted out of the marketing budget. A necessary evil
The problem is GCC, Linux and Eclipse tend to come with a religion transplant that removes all engineering common sense.
-- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
With commercial toolchains set at the price they are, a lot of smaller companies and consultants will have no alternative but to balk at the cost and look for lower cost alternatives, especially if they need multiple copies. The gnu compiler collection and associated tools have had some serious money invested by serious companies in the past few years and are now probably every bit as good as the commercial versions for some platforms. Why is this ?. Because, as you say, the silicon vendors want to get product into the marketplace and expensive proprietary toolchains are one if not the main barrier to achieving this.
As you also say, nothing comes for free, but I could spend days at my hourly rate and still save a bundle over, say. the Keil Mdk for arm. Not only that, the experience gained building gcc and other tools adds to the knowledge base and will be usable next time I need to build a toolchain, not to mention the benefit in terms of common source libraries, makefiles, linker script templates etc.
That's a bit emotive, almost insulting, suggesting that any engineer who doesn't keep the faith with commercial tools must be somehow mentally deficient. Can't believe you really mean to say that.
Regards,
Chris
Strawman strategy. I never claimed that a tool (commercial or free) doesn't require time to learn how to use it. I only claimed that the purchase price is only part of its total cost. Therefore one should not only look at its purchase price but also consider the time it takes to get up to speed with it and the eventual productivity. And those factors are certainly not equal for every tool.
I'm not saying that free tools costs more, just that it is not self-evident that free tools cost less than commercial tools when you look at the whole picture. Considering how much a manweek costs compared to the purchase price of most tools, the purchase price should be in most cases only a minor consideration.
Strawman strategy. I never claimed it was.
That is the same in every industry.
That is not true by a LONG way.
No. Silicon vendors put as little effort as possible in to developing these tools It comes of their profit line
If you say so... I do know several people who costed it out and came to the opposite conclusion.
I didn't say that at all. I use Open Source tools my self. I am just not a fanatic about it.
-- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
poss,
Wrong : The Raisonance toolkit has the same level of performance/ features, but has excellent support and less expensive ! My $.02, Bruno
lly
It's pointless for these arguments. I use WinAVR/GCC, MPLAB/C30, Eclipse/ARM and Android/Java/Linux all at the same time. I can't tell what is better or worst overall. I can only say that they do a better job than I can. Do you guys think you can write better IDE?
All you can do is form an honest opinion and communicate that that to them. If they choose to ignore the facts, they can't say they were not warned. Sometimes it's better to walk away from work if you can't get the client to see sense.
I had to look that up :-), but yes, dealing with someone else's legacy code can be a soul destroying business...
Regards,
Chris
That's a pretty sweeping statement. How about some data to back it up ?.
How does that in any way relate to the content or accuracy of the previous paragraph ?.
Ok, neither are most, I would think. I still don't understand what you mean by:
"religion transplant that removes all engineering common sense"
I don't see that at all. Open source is just part of the landscape, but does gets better and better. Companies like Code Sourcery and Red Hat etc demonstrate that there is more than one valid business model for software tool development, sale and support...
Regards,
Chris
He has none, just anecdotes, because it is, I gather,
*illegal to publish benchmarks of commercial compilers*.What have they got to hide I wonder?
The one I remember is this notorious example
Here it seems Keil trashed GCC by comparing its output with theirs. Without mentioning theirs had opimization turned on and gcc did not!!
The only time I looked into it (on ARM) I found no significant difference when compiling small functions and tight loops (which was my focus when I needed to optimize something). There was a bigger difference with respect to library functions and floating point math.
[...]-- John Devereux
Chris, no one is going to take you seriously until you understand the difference between "most compiler vendors" and "Keil, IAR, and a couple of other expensive commercial toolkit vendors".
I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that Keil don't put a lot of effort into their IDE. I can't say I was overly impressed by Keil's IDE for ARM, but I only used it for a day-long workshop. It was okay - better than many I've used, but not something that would have influenced me to buy it.
However, the real world situation in embedded tools is that a large proportion (probably well over half) currently use Eclipse as their IDE, and many of the others are moving to it. The majority of those left buy in their IDEs or have pretty simple home-made tools. Finally, there are a few very large commercial developers that put a lot of work and effort into their IDEs - including Keil, IAR and Green Hills (to name a few that I have tried). But that clan is small, and it is getting smaller - Code Warrior and Code Composer Studio, for example, have both "defected" to the Eclipse camp.
Personally, if I were wanted to pay a lot of money for a toolchain, I would prefer an Eclipse IDE. That's not because I like Eclipse so much
- I usually prefer using a lighter editor and running my compilations from command-line make. But I don't see other vendor's IDEs as being significantly better. They would be more efficient using Eclipse as a base and making other tools as Eclipse plugins. When I give a vendor money, I'd prefer that it was for the tools I want - the compiler, the libraries, the debugger, the documentation, the support - not for a "me too" IDE that they could get free.
Industry consolidation on Eclipse means a lower learning curve for users, and developers, which is good for everyone.
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