PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning

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Hvilken frekvens område er bedst til ladning af bly-batteri'er?
Skal bruge det til PWM kodening: PWMfrequency = ( MHz * 250000 ) / ( period
+ 1 )
Fra helt aflad til fuld opladt batteri.

--
Med venlig hilsen
Monie Jacobsen
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Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladnin g

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Hej Monie

Et batteri skal blot oplades med DC.

Her er mere information:

BATTERY INFORMATION LINKS LIST:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks.htm

Car and Deep Cycle Battery Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 5.1:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/index.htm

EVALUATION OF THE BATTERIES AND CHARGE CONTROLLERS IN SMALL STAND:
http://www.sandia.gov/pv/docs/PDF/evalbat.pdf

Operation and maintenance field experience for off-grid:
http://www.azsolarcenter.com/technology/pdfs/PIPOff-GridPaper.pdf

-

PWM frekvensen er kun interessant for smps-strF8%mforsyningens design.20%
Smps output er normalt DC.

Fordele ved hF8%jere designfrekvens:
*Trafo fylder mindre
*Mindre kondensatorer - men de skal have lav ESR (Low Equivalent Series20%
Resistance)

Fordele ved lavere designfrekvens:
*Mindre HF-stF8%j
*Mindre mosfet,transistor-tab
*Mindre diode-tab

Se mere her:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smps
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smps#Design

mvh/Glenn


Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning
Hej Glenn

Mange tak forde du svarede.
Jeg vil kigge på de link du henviser til.

MVH
Monie


Monie Jacobsen wrote:

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Hej Monie

Et batteri skal blot oplades med DC.

Her er mere information:

BATTERY INFORMATION LINKS LIST:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks.htm

Car and Deep Cycle Battery Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) 5.1:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/index.htm

EVALUATION OF THE BATTERIES AND CHARGE CONTROLLERS IN SMALL STAND:
http://www.sandia.gov/pv/docs/PDF/evalbat.pdf

Operation and maintenance field experience for off-grid:
http://www.azsolarcenter.com/technology/pdfs/PIPOff-GridPaper.pdf

-

PWM frekvensen er kun interessant for smps-strømforsyningens design.
Smps output er normalt DC.

Fordele ved højere designfrekvens:
*Trafo fylder mindre
*Mindre kondensatorer - men de skal have lav ESR (Low Equivalent Series
Resistance)

Fordele ved lavere designfrekvens:
*Mindre HF-støj
*Mindre mosfet,transistor-tab
*Mindre diode-tab

Se mere her:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smps
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smps#Design

mvh/Glenn



Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladnin g


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Du skal vist bruge meget tid på at kigge og lære...!  (Udfra dit gæt på
ladning med AC)


NB.
Overvej at gøre som de fleste andre, og som reglen er:
Svar _under_ det du kommenterer, og slet overflødig tekst.

Det plejer du ikke at gøre, nej det kan jeg se.


Kig på www.usenet.dk


Mvh. Jørgen


Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning

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Ikke AC men pulserende DC. pulserende DC er en ladeteknik der kan benyttes
på NICD batterier så mindskes memoryeffekten.

Jacob



Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:37:05 +0200, "Jacob"

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Det lyder ikke rigtigt.

Kilde?
--
Jeg kan virkelig ikke se, hvad det skulle betyde, at forbinde en 0,1 mm X 1
mm tin-fyldt kobberbane i ét apparat med en anden 0,1 mm X 1 mm tinfyldt
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Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladnin g
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Hej Ole

Det har faktisk vE6%ret 2 kontroversielle emner i lang tid og der er20%
tilhE6%ngere i begge lejre vedr. memery-effekt og DC med AC overlejret.

-

Der er delte meninger om "memory"-effekten i NiCd-akkumulatorer eksistere=
r:

"memory"-effekten er en myte:

James A. Zaun: NiCd battery "memory" is largely myth.
http://www.fridge41.freeserve.co.uk/memory.htm

James A. Zaun: NiCd Batteries do NOT have "memory":
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Memory.html

"memory"-effekt eksisterer:

Isidor Buchmann: Memory: Myth or fact?:
http://erfred.free.fr/accus/theorie/NA_Memory1.pdf

2.9) Does the memory effect exist?:
http://www.repairfaq.org/ELE/F_NiCd_Battery.html#NICDBATTERY_014

Nyere adresser er mE5%ske her:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkumulator_%28elektrisk%29

-

For NiMH er der mE5%ske fF8%lgende forklaring. Det kan skyldes generelt20%
faldende kapacitet efter 300 ladningscykler (altsE5% permanent20%
"memory-effekt"):

Choosing a battery that will last
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article9-Page1.asp
http://www.buchmann.ca/article9-page2.asp
"...
Figure 4 examines the NiMH, a battery that offers high energy density at =

low cost. We observe good performance at first but past the 300-cycle20%
mark, the performance starts to drift downwards rapidly. One can observe =

the swift increase in internal resistance and self-discharge after cycle =

count 700.
2E%.."
http://www.buchmann.ca/Article9-page4.asp
"...
How much battery maintenance is needed?
The NiMH and NiCd are considered high maintenance batteries that require =

regular discharge cycles to prevent memory. Although the NiMH was20%
originally advertised as memory-free, both NiCd and NiMH are affected20%
similarly by memory.
2E%.."

-

Teknikken med DC overlejret med AC hedder "reflekslader", "Negative20%
Pulse Charge" eller "Burp" Charging:

Negative Pulse Charge, or "Burp" Charging: Fact or Fiction?:
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/burp.html
Hovedadresse:
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com /

En god ladestrategi er mE5%ske her: Elektor 6/1993, side 26-30, Manfred
Greve, ICS-1700-reflexlader.

Der findes fF8%lgede ladekredse; NiCd og NiMH: ICS1700A (dV/dt) &
ICS1702 (dV/dt og/eller dT/dt), Lithium: ICS1733, bly: ICS1735:
http://www.galaxypower.com/galaxy/organization/products.htm ;.

Produktguide:
http://www.galaxypower.com/galaxy/organization/gpi_pguide.pdf ;:
Citat side 1 "...selectable charge rates: 15 min to 4 Hr for NiCd, 35 min=

to 4 Hr for NiMH...Pulse charge conditioning and precision charge
control eliminates "memory" effects and "capacity fade". ...dramatically
extended battery life: twice the life compared to -dV and peak
overcharge detect methods, up to ten (10) times the life compared to
"brute-force" time/temperature cut-off and constant trickle overcharge
methods. ...Customer tested to over 2800 charge/discharge
cycles...Used by NASA in space shuttle and space station applications:
space suit helmet light...space propulsion units...".

ICS1702 datablad:
http://www.galaxypower.com/galaxy/organization/ics1702.PDF ;.

Firmaet bag ICS1700 er oprindeligt Integrated Circuit Systems:
http://www.icst.com/ ;

Flere referencer om elementer og akkumulatorer:

For en del E5%r siden (1985) skrev Rod Cooper nogle artikler om NiCd
akkumulatorer ve & vel. Han har yderligere referencer angE5%ende
akkumulatorer. Se i: Electronics World & Wireless World 1985. Nr 5. Nr
6 side 60-63 "Avoiding failures of sealed NiCd cells". Nr 7 side 32-36
"Recharging system for NiCd cells". Nr 8 side 73 "NiCd cells - part 4".
Der er desvE6%rre en del fejl i hans diagram til opladesystemet. Jeg har
ikke lige papirene ved hE5%nden, sE5% de kan ikke blive remset op. Han
argumenterer for DC ladning med overlejret 50 Hz AC, sE5% der oplades
ladning ca. 80% og aflades 20% i en periode, men dette 80/20 forhold
skulle ikke vE6%re sE5% kritisk. Denne ladetype har 2 mE5%l; hE6%mme dend=
rit
dannelse (intern celle kortslutning) og lavere indre modstand ved
afladning. Desuden mE5% der ikke lades pE5% NiCd, NiMH, nE5%r
celletemperaturen er udenfor intervallet +5...+40 grader C.

Funkschau 12/1998: side 81-84, Helmuth Lemme, Professionelle
Akku-Ladetechnik, stikord:"reflexladen, VDX-verfahren, NiCd, Li-ion,
Alkali-Mangan, Bleiakku".



mvh/Glenn






Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning
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http://www.morningstarcorp.com/support/Why-PWM/why-pwm-2.shtml

--
Anders Henriksen - born without teeth
supermule [at] lite [dot] dk

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Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning
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Her er lidt om PWM-ladning af blybatterier. Glenn har jo skrevet om
nikkel-baserede batterier.

Om PWM-ladning af blyakkumulatorer til solceller og ladeeffektivitet
(fabrikant):
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/support/Why-PWM/why-pwm-1.shtml
http://www.morningstarcorp.com/support/Why-PWM/why-pwm-2.shtml

Det fremgår at "PWM pulse charging can deter the formation of sulfate
deposits", hvilket jeg mener at have læst på en uafhængig side, men den kan
jeg selvfølgelig ikke finde lige nu.

Her nævnes PWM-ladning af blyakkumulatorer kort:
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm

Der er blandt eksperter ikke megen enighed om PWM-ladningens goder, men
blandt RC-folk (nikkelbatterier) er det vist nok det helt store hit, gerne
med en negativ puls for hver 100, eller så. Det skulle både øge den
elektromotoriske kraft og sænke den indre modstand.


--
Anders Henriksen - born without teeth
supermule [at] lite [dot] dk

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Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladnin g [Forsøg på afklaring]
2E%..
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Hej Anders

Der er desvE6%rre, sE5%vidt jeg kan se, blandet 3 ting sammen:

1) PWM er en teknik, der anvendes i:
http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smps

PWM stE5%r for "Pulse Width Modulation", hvilket oversE6%ttes til20%
Pulsbreddemodulation.

Negative Pulse Charge, or "Burp" Charging: Fact or Fiction?:
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/burp.html

2) De teknikker der anvendes ved NiCd og NiMH kaldes "reflekslader",20%
"Negative Pulse Charge" eller "Burp" Charging.

IfF8%lge denne kilde er teknikken aflivet som vE6%rende en fordel:

Negative Pulse Charge, or "Burp" Charging: Fact or Fiction?:
http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/burp.html
Citat: "...It has never been demonstrated to have any advantage over20%
conventional charging, either on charge efficiency, the performance or20%
the life of the battery..."

3) Antisulfateringspulser - et andet kontroversielt emne:

16. HOW CAN I REVIVE A SULFATED BATTERY?:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq16.htm
Citat: "...As a consequence of parasitic load and natural20%
self-discharge, permanent sulfation occurs as the lead-acid battery20%
discharges while in long term storage...Self discharge is accelerated by =

temperature. Thus, sulfation can be a huge problem for lead-acid20%
batteries not being used, sitting on a dealer's shelf, or in a parked20%
vehicle, especially in HOT temperatures..."

Desulfators and Pulse Chargers:
http://www.uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks.htm#desulfators

Lead Acid Battery Desulfation Pulse Generator
Some help and information for builders:
http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm

Some Technical Details on Lead Acid Batteries
The Chemistry of Sulfation, and Why Pulsing Helps:
http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/technotes.htm
Citat: "...
In the above, the Level One, Two, or Three bonds refer to progressively20%
larger and insoluable crystals of lead sulfate. Like most crystal20%
formation, it is a slow process. So the question is, How could pulse20%
charging affect this situation? According to conventional wisdom, not at =

all. Here is the party line, from a product applications manager at20%
Trojan Battery Co. on pulsing
2E%..
Cycling of the battery causes "shedding", or loss of material from the20%
plates. If you see a battery that has reached its limit, you might find20%
chunks of lead on the bottom of the cell, and actual holes in the20%
plates. Nothing's to be done in this case. Excessive charge rate will20%
also cause this to occur.
2E%..
Electrolyte stratification occurs when the batteries do not receive20%
sufficient charge rate to cause bubbles to rise and stir the liquid. The =

heavier electrolyte sinks to the bottom of the cell. This renders the20%
lower portion of the plates inactive, and that is where sulfation gets20%
started. Some large batteries use pumps to force the electrolyte to turn =

over.
2E%.."

mvh/Glenn





Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladning [Forsøg på afklaring]
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Ja, det er sådan nogle, jeg har arbejdet med og lavet nogle stykker af ;-)

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Nåda. Du kan oversætte fra engelsk til dansk :-) Og teknikken anvendes ikke
kun til SMPS, men mange steder, hvor høj effektivitet er ønskeligt.

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Det har jeg heller ikke skrevet, kun at nogle mener, det giver god mening at
PWM-lade blyakkumulatorer, samt at nogle RC-kørere er glade for teknikken.
Nogle af disse mener, der er en fordel. Jeg har udelukkende henvist til et
par steder, hvor PWM-ladning anbefales/omtales, samt nævnt at visse RC-folk
er glade for (om ikke PWM- så puls-) ladning af deres nikkel-baserede
batterier, hvad enten de nu anvender den ene eller anden mere eller mindre
eksotiske metode. Det nye her er forøvrigt step-ladning.

Men iøvrigt tak for de mange links.


--
Anders Henriksen
supermule [snabela] lite [punktum] dk

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Re: PWM frekvensområde for batteri ladnin g [NiCd memory fjerning...punkt 4]
2E%..

 > Det fremgE5%r at "PWM pulse charging can deter the formation of sulfat=
e
 > deposits", hvilket jeg mener at have lE6%st pE5% en uafhE6%ngig side, =
men20%
den kan
 > jeg selvfF8%lgelig ikke finde lige nu.

Hej Anders

4) LadningsF8%velser for NiCd akkumulatorer:

Chapter 10: Getting the Most from your Batteries:
http://www.buchmann.ca/chap10-page1.asp
Citat: "...
The problem with the nickel-based battery is not the cyclic memory but20%
the effects of crystalline formation.
2E%..
When NiMH was first introduced there was much publicity about its20%
memory-free status. Today, it is known that this chemistry also suffers20%
from memory but to a lesser extent than the NiCd.
2E%..
Tests performed by the US Army have shown that a NiCd cell needs to be20%
discharged to at least 0.6V to effectively break up the more resistant20%
crystalline formation. During recondition, the current must be kept low20%
to prevent cell reversal. [AltsE5% helst hver celle hver sin afladning]
2E%.."
http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page2.asp
"...
Figure 10-3:  Effects of exercise and recondition.
Battery A improved capacity on exercise alone; batteries B and C20%
required recondition. A new battery with excellent readings improved20%
further with recondition.
2E%.."
http://www.buchmann.ca/Chap10-page3.asp
"...
With charge only (charge-and-use), the annual percentage of battery20%
failure on the USS Eisenhower was 45 percent (see Figure 10-4). When20%
applying exercise, the failure rate was reduced to 15 percent. By far20%
the best results were achieved with recondition. The failure rate20%
dropped to 5 percent. Identical results were attained from the USS20%
George Washington and the USS Ponce.
2E%.."

mvh/Glenn






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