Surge protectors to use with home electronics when grounding is not available?

I am moving into a home which was built in the late 1800s where brownouts are common and no grounds are available on the outlets. I will not have the option of rewiring the home.

Does anyone have suggestions as to how I can best protect my home electronics (computers, entertainment center, etc).

I've seen plenty of "surge protectors" which look like they are more marketing hype than anything else. What are your opinions on these?

Has anyone heard of cases where people actually cashed in on the insurances offered by these devices ? How about cases of renter's insurance covering damage due to electrical problems during storms (or other timers) ?

If there are surge suppressors out there that are worth their salt, are any of the insurances valid when the suppressors are not connected to grounded outlets?

Thanks for any assistance.

Reply to
d_dd22222
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If you are not allowed to rewire, then shut off the power, and buy oil lamps etc, to return to the year 1900 :) Using unreliable wiring, is like playing russian roulette. You can die from it.

Reply to
Sjouke Burry

Wasn't this discussed here about a week ago? Why, yes. It was.

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(Too lazy to even scan thru a few days' worth of posts before posting as well.) . . If you give yourself a REAL username (instead of using an email address there), you will make it easier for others (especially other Google Groupers).
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Reply to
JeffM

Throw "best" out the window. Some things you can do: use fiber optic telephone and television service.

I don't think insurance will be honored when there is no ground, but I don't know for sure. Same thing for the warrantees on point of use protectors.

IEEE recommends point of use protectors in conjunction with whole house protection, so at least some point of use protectors are good. But you can't follow the IEEE recommendation, which is why you have to throw "best" out the window. Without ground, you _cannot_ correctly assume that your equipment is protected from surges, unless it is completely disconnected from places where the surges can get in - mains, tv leadin, telephone wires etc.

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

. I agree with all of that.

Add a ground to a few receptacles?

Most commonly damaged equipment has connections to both power and signal (phone, cable) wires.

Wireless router for computer phone? The router is at risk, but the computer does not connect to both power and phone wires.

Add a service panel suppressor? Not obvious if that is an option.

Phone and cable entry protectors should connect with a short 'ground' wire to the earthing wire at the power service. A lot of surge protection is keeping the power/phone/cable wires at about the same voltage (even though that voltage may wind up thousands of volts above 'absolute' ground for an instant). That requires a short wire.

Check that the power service is connected to an earthing electrode. Probably the water pipe if the water service has at least 10 ft metal in the ground. Maybe a ground rod.

Plug-in suppressors can provide protection but can shift the ground potential at the suppressor. Without a power 'ground' wire that can be a problem. All interconnected equipment needs to connect to the same suppressor. External wires, like cable and phone, also have to go through the suppressor. I would be nervous running cable and phone wires through a suppressor that does not have a power ground.

Equipment connected through a 'wall wart' is generally fairly well protected.

All of this is surge protection and provides no protection from brownouts.

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bud--
Reply to
bud--

Keep your equipment in a different place. Do you have the option of building a shop on the property with modern wiring? Tools and equipment can live there happily, but I believe you should rethink your idea of an electronic entertainment center, may I suggest some acoustic guitars and a nice piano, perhaps? Don't fret the oil lamps, lighting will work fine on line-to-neutral without ground, provided the mice haven't gnawed too deeply into the insulation.

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That should answer your questions about suppressor operation. However, your problem is deeper than a concern about line surges, and as others have offered, surges and brownouts are not the same thing. Modern appliances are designed to work with 2/1 wiring, that is, two conductors and a safety ground. Using these devices without that ground attached, leads to a plethora of safety and performance concerns.

Since you are choosing to live in an apparently historically protected domicile, you should probably likewise choose to live in a manner consistent with the restrictions of said domicile. Welcome to the 19th century!

Reply to
Charlie Siegrist

Thanks all for the responses.

I see that there isn't much I can do short of having the building rewired (maybe if I purchase it down the road).

I added brownout and surge protection to my renter's insurance and knocked the deductible down. I've discussed such policies at length with several insurance companies and feel that this will be adequate. If anyone thinks otherwise, please share your comments.

I lived in a home with no grounds while attending college and had no issues with electronics or computers so I guess I'll just have to wait and see how things go here. There are more electrical storms in this area during this time of year, which is my reason for additional concern.

The place is wired for high speed internet/digital cable and the last dweller used two A/C units (there are a total of 24 circuits in the home. Some circuits are 30 A- not sure if that goes for all of them yet. The presence of 240 VAC for both the stove and an electric dryer has me wondering if the wiring may be more recent than 1900? It is not knob and tube wiring but is definitely old. I'll have to get pictures online after I move in to see what electricians have to say (provided the said plethora of performance problems doesn't completely prevent me from accessing the internet).

Reply to
d_dd22222

I think I'll add these portable GFCIs to major appliance circuits. They do not address the electronics I was asking about in this question but at least they'll add a small degree of safety. I feel that disturbing the original wiring to install built-in GFCIs would be more netative than any positives provided from them.

Reply to
d_dd22222

oup:sci.electronic...

And why hasn't w_tom jumped in yet?

Reply to
NB

The effective surge protectors work regardless of whether receptacles have ground. The only relevant ground is a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') ground from protector to earth. Rewiring interior circuits was never required for surge protection. But that breaker box earth ground (and earthing for all other incoming utilities) must be upgraded to post 1990 NEC requirements. In many cases, that means 'less than 10 feet' of bare 6 AWG copper wire, the

10 foot earth ground rod, and a 'whole house' protector.

Effective protectors work by earthing surges. That wall receptacle wire is woefully too long, has sharp bends, had splices, is bundled with other wires, etc. Each point conspires to make it only a safety ground (equipment ground) and not earth ground.

A properly earthed 'whole house' protector is also the only solution to protecting GFCIs. Just another in a long list of electronics that requires a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

A surge protector works by dissipating surge energy in earth. However, if a tiny 100 amp surge is grounded by a power strip protector, then the 50 feet of grounded romex means the protector is at something less than 12,000 volts. Why such high voltage between protector and earth? Wire is too long, too many sharp bends, etc.

Install three wire plugs and still have no earth ground? Yes. This is why only responsible companies sell 'whole house' protectors - ie Keison, Square D, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, Leviton, Siemens, GE, etc. No protector provides protection. Protection is provided by earthing. That means wire length must be short, earthing wire must be separated from all other wires, etc.

How to install that breaker box earth ground. If the 6 AWG goes up over the foundation and down to the earth rod, then protection has been compromised. Again, too long, sharp bends, etc. That earthing wire best goes through foundation and down to the ground rod. Distance to earth is that critical.

A 'whole house' protector must dissipated lightning energy in earth

- and remain functional. Yes, the effective protector must earth direct lightning strikes without damage. Then that surge need not find earth, destructively, via household appliances - two wire or three.

No protector will stop or absorb what three miles of sky could not. And yet that is what some plug-in protector promoters are claiming. All appliances contain protection. Protection that is not overwhelms if the connection from each incoming utility wire (inside every cable) to earth is 'less than 10 feet'. Even the 'whole house' protector provided by your telco (for free) must be earthing short to this new earth rod. Even the cable TV must connect to this ground rod (no protector required to earth cable TV).

Warranty. It is so full of exemptions that nobody gets it honored. For example, one of many exceptions states that a protector in the building from any other manufacturer void the warranty. Read the fine print. With so many exemptions, your claim will only replace the protector.

As a renter, your best bet is to buy the 'whole house' protector. Have the landlord install it and upgrade the earthing. Surge protection is always about dissipating surge energy into earth. Nothing will stop or absorb what three miles of sky cannot even stop.

Brownouts have zero relation to surge. Grounding is irrelevant to brownouts. Brownouts are a low voltage where the appliance must keep working or simply turn off. Surge protection (why that short earth connection is critical) is about high voltage and high frequencies. Brownouts are completely ignored by surge protection.

How common are surges? Maybe once every seven years. If the building has better earthing, if the protection at the service entrance is properly installed, and if distance between that service entrance and computer is long; then even better protection exists. Critical to effective protection on two wire or three wire circuits is protection connected within feet to earth AND separation between protector and electronics.

Reply to
w_tom

was.http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=surge+ingroup:sci.electronic...

Give him time !

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Best Regards:
                     Baron.
Reply to
Baron

Yes, please, why such high voltage? My calculation of your numbers shows

2.4 ohms per foot for the 12ga (assuming) Romex. Where do you find Romex at 2.4 ohms per foot? Unless by "something less" you mean "orders of magnitude less." Maybe your statement simply needs some clarification. Thank you.
Reply to
Charlie Siegrist

Would a few UPS units be worth investing in as a degree of surge protection? I remember hearing once before that UPS devices provide better surge protection than surge protectors in many cases... Any truth to this? Do they provide any protection at all?

Reply to
d_dd22222

Don't feed the troll.

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Reply to
Michael A. Terrell

Hmmf?

Reply to
Charlie Siegrist

ws

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You are calculating wire resistance. Wire resistance on a 50 foot romex may be 0.2 ohms. Critical to surge protection is lowest wire impedance. That 50 foot romex may also be 120 ohms impedance. One is more related to wire diameter. Other is more related to wire length.

Put a sharp bend in that wire. Does resistance increase? No. But impedance increases. Why must proper earthing have no sharp bends? It would increase impedance - not resistance.

Why does a plug-in UPS not even claim such protection? Where is its low impedance earthing wire? Where is that dedicated, low impedance earthing wire? Does not exist.

Two 'top of the front page' articles entitled "Protecting Electrical Devices from Lightning Transients" in Electrical Engineering Times do not discuss power strip or UPS as protection. Article instead discusses effective protection including wire impedance and earth ground.

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Reply to
w_tom

UPS provides better protection when myths are promoted. Review its numeric specs. Where does it list each type of surge and protection from that surge? Nothing. No numbers. Does not claim effective protection. Even its joules rating is woefully smaller - but somehow is better protection? No according to that number.. Demonstrated: so many claim a UPS is better when they don't even read the numbers. Subjective reasoning (ignore the numbers) resulted in 'junk science' UPS recommendatoin.

UPS claims surge protection only because it does have some joules numbers. Sufficient for many to *know* using subjective reasoning. But near zero surge protection. Recommendatioin without even learning the numbers. Common is for the naive to make such claims only because that was the first thing heard: UPS provides better protection. So many did not even read the numbers - but somehow knew.

Please post those UPS spec numbers that even claim to provide surge protection. Even the manufacturer doesl not publish such claims.

Reply to
w_tom

. Geez - NB and Baron are psychic...

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is in a guide from the IEEE at:

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And a guide from the US NIST at:

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The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. .

. The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by CLAMPING (limiting) the voltage on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor. Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or absorbing). The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the guide starting pdf page 40). .

. According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment most frequently damaged by lightning is computers with a modem connection TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV connections). All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

To limit the voltage between power and phone or cable wires the entry protectors for phone and cable have to connect with *short* ground wires to the earthing wire at the power service.

And if you are using a plug-in suppressor all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents damaging voltages between power and signal wires. These multiport suppressors are described in both guides. .

. If a power line surge creates a 1,000A current to earth with a very good resistance to earth of 10 ohms, the power system ground rises 10,000V above 'absolute' earth potential. Much of the effectiveness of surge protection is keeping the power and phone and cable wires at the same potential with all of them floating up to 10,000V.

At a plug-in suppressor all the wires may also can float up to a relatively high voltage. See the IEEE guide starting pdf page 40 for a surge coming in on a cable service. .

. All of w_'s "responsible" companies except SquareD make plug?in suppressors. For its "best" service panel suppressor SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."

Contrary to w_'s rant, both the IEEE and NIST guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Never seen ? a source that agrees with w_ that plug-in suppressors are NOT effective.

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bud--
Reply to
bud--

Manufacturers make untrue claims (marketing). People make untrue claims (ignorance).

I'll leave it to you to figure out how both of these facts are related to me posting questions here.

First you say: "UPS claims surge protection only because it does have some joules numbers."

Then you say: "Please post those UPS spec numbers that even claim to provide surge protection. Even the manufacturer doesl [sic] not publish such claims."

I'm not interested in proving the answer to the question that I asked to you but I do suggest that you decide to perpetuate non- contradictory statements. It might make your life easier.

It's amazing to see someone use the words "subjective reasoning" twice while answering a simple electronics/electrical question. You clearly are the resident troll, aren't you?

Don't worry all, I won't feed him again.

Reply to
d_dd22222

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