Cut out the moving mechanical part from a refrigerator, the compressor, and a heat engine, the expander, and splice together what is remaining of each loop.
Instead of CHP (combined heating and power) here's CCP:
Bret Cahill
instant cold ac."
I got into a van once that seemed to have instant cold air. It had sat for a while. The only thing I can think of is they shut off a valve and mainta in the pressures in the refrigeration system. Automotive compressors have n o problem starting under load. The house units have little starting torque so that would be impossible unless maybe you use a DC motor.
If you are a thermodynamics guy I have a question. It is one of those "Will this contraption work ?". I am pretty sure it would be impractical with to day's technology, but is the principle sound ?
Air conditioning that simply uses air. You know how a diesel engine works. It is not friction that heats the air it is the fact that you are squeezing the same BTUs of heat into a much smaller space.
So, take a high pressure air compressor and pump up a heat exchanger (like a condenser but does not condense), stick in front of the car or whatever t o cool and then just let the air out at whatever CFM you want for the cooli ng.
I understand the difficulty in getting a compressor that can deliver that m uch air at that pressure, but if you could would it work ? Or are there ine fficiencies of which I am unaware that make it totally unworkable ?
Don't mean to hijack but the topic has to do with air conditioning so...
front seat."
Isn't there a luxury car out there somewhere with a cooled drink holder ? I know it is possible but I would not attempt to use a Peltier in it. You wo uld have to water cool that or it would melt the pimp rest.
If such a thing were developed I had another harebrained idea for it. A gim bal type mechanism that makes a cover unnecessary. I used to take lunch wit h this guy we called Smitty who drove like a maniac. Like in my younger day at the tire shop the wear charts that told you if you had bad ball joints or whatever, mine were always "excessive speed on turns". Sometimes we ate in his car and even with the cover sometimes a drink would spill some. So I developed a technique of kinda holding it at the top and let the cup tilt to let it cancel out the Gforces produced. So I was thinking of some sort o f mechanism that would do that.
Couple a device like that with a cooling system of some sort and I think ma ybe Benz or Rolls would buy it. I am fairly whelmed by the stuff they put o n regular cars. Luxury cars going for well into the six figure range should have more going for them.
instant cold ac. Shorter trips are very common so it >would save a conside rable amount of fuel. "
In the old days I was told that a car AC takes about 12 HP. I do not know h ow accurate that is but we are talking back in the days when we had V8 engi nes, which before the were detuned didn't even need a kick up for the idle to stop them from stalling. I had many cars with over 300 HP and a few with over 400. That puny compressor didn't mean shit to a power plant like that .
But those AC systems were different. They had an accumulator, because every one knew almost all of them leaked. I had ONE CAR that did not leak Freon a nd considered it a fluke. They also had thermostatically controlled expansi on valves. The newer cars, sometime in the 1980s they got cheap and it beca me a critical charge cap tube system.
Anyway, PV system running a freezer or whatever, so it runs all the time ? I imagine it would be thermostatically controlled and when you are not pump ing hot air through there it probably shuts down just to save wear and tear .
Are they actually on any vehicles on the road or is this just more of those patents sitting on the shelf kike for the water injection carberator ? I w ould think some of these Emirs and Sheiks in the middle east who are made o f money might have something like that.
Another thing about PVs, it is probably not recommended for places like Ohi o because we have to sweep feet of snow off the cars in the winter. Are the y adversely affected by the cold itself though ?
The other thing about the PVs running the AC all the time is that some peop le actually put their car in the garage. I am pretty sure that in the US mo st people don't, and use the garage for storage and whatever. Hell I have p arties in mine.
In fact I would like to have a way to cool the garage without using a to of electricity. It already costs a fortune just to cool the house. When givin g direction to people who have never been here I tell them to look for the house they think has the highest heating and cooling bills on the street. I got the wintertime beat with the wonder of propanium. Only went through th ree tanks last winter. But cooling is a big problem. And I am pretty sure i t is too humid here to use a swamp cooler. Plus, even though I rewired the garage all in conduit and it could handle many amps, the feed from the hous e can't, plus I don't want to use them.
If I could get enough PVs on the roof of the garage and use something like that patented gizmo for cars it would probably work. Hell with PVs I could just put a thermostat in there and let it run all the time. But how bad it the wear and tear factor here ?
Just some ideas...
a
I have read about those and actually always wanted one. They are called abs orption and there is water in the system, so the material used must withsta nd that because you REALLY do not want a leak. Also there is a limit as to how far the condenser and evaporator can be, and they must be positioned to take advantage of gravity. I don't believe they had to be perfectly level, but that property made them unsuitable for some applications.
Don't take all that to the bank, I read that stuff at least 20 years ago.
r instant cold ac."
or a while. The only thing I can think of is they shut off a valve and main tain the pressures in the refrigeration system. Automotive compressors have no problem starting under load. The house units have little starting torqu e so that would be impossible unless maybe you use a DC motor.
ll this contraption work ?". I am pretty sure it would be impractical with today's technology, but is the principle sound ?
. It is not friction that heats the air it is the fact that you are squeezi ng the same BTUs of heat into a much smaller space.
e a condenser but does not condense), stick in front of the car or whatever to cool and then just let the air out at whatever CFM you want for the coo ling.
much air at that pressure, but if you could would it work ? Or are there i nefficiencies of which I am unaware that make it totally unworkable ?
Gas is actually a better working fluid than liquid/vapor from a pure thermo dynamic cycle POV, refrigeration or heat engines.
The reason vapor wins out in refrigeration is the same as for external comb ustion, steam power v Stirling: The heat transfer coefficient is much high er with a liquid than a gas.
Looking at a thermocycle only makes sense if you have infinite surface area s, an infinite amount of time to waste, etc.
e front seat."
I know it is possible but I would not attempt to use a Peltier in it. You would have to water cool that or it would melt the pimp rest.
imbal type mechanism that makes a cover unnecessary. I used to take lunch w ith this guy we called Smitty who drove like a maniac. Like in my younger d ay at the tire shop the wear charts that told you if you had bad ball joint s or whatever, mine were always "excessive speed on turns". Sometimes we at e in his car and even with the cover sometimes a drink would spill some. So I developed a technique of kinda holding it at the top and let the cup til t to let it cancel out the Gforces produced. So I was thinking of some sort of mechanism that would do that.
maybe Benz or Rolls would buy it. I am fairly whelmed by the stuff they put on regular cars. Luxury cars going for well into the six figure range shou ld have more going for them.
An acquaintance claims his BMW condenses drinking water from AC. BMW likes to attempt new stuff like that.
r instant cold ac. Shorter trips are very common so it >would save a consi derable amount of fuel. "
how accurate that is but we are talking back in the days when we had V8 en gines, which before the were detuned didn't even need a kick up for the idl e to stop them from stalling. I had many cars with over 300 HP and a few wi th over 400. That puny compressor didn't mean shit to a power plant like th at.
The ice wouldn't last forever. It would be mostly for 1 or 2 short trips/d ay.
ryone knew almost all of them leaked. I had ONE CAR that did not leak Freon and considered it a fluke. They also had thermostatically controlled expan sion valves. The newer cars, sometime in the 1980s they got cheap and it be came a critical charge cap tube system.
? I imagine it would be thermostatically controlled and when you are not pu mping hot air through there it probably shuts down just to save wear and te ar.
Maybe size the ice part large enough so it runs whenever the sun is up.
se patents sitting on the shelf kike for the water injection carberator ? I would think some of these Emirs and Sheiks in the middle east who are made of money might have something like that.
hio because we have to sweep feet of snow off the cars in the winter. Are t hey adversely affected by the cold itself though ?
PV loses up to 20% efficiency in the desert heat.
ople actually put their car in the garage. I am pretty sure that in the US most people don't, and use the garage for storage and whatever. Hell I have parties in mine.
of electricity. It already costs a fortune just to cool the house.
ook for the house they think has the highest heating and cooling bills on t he street. I got the wintertime beat with the wonder of propanium. Only wen t through three tanks last winter. But cooling is a big problem. And I am p retty sure it is too humid here to use a swamp cooler. Plus, even though I rewired the garage all in conduit and it could handle many amps, the feed f rom the house can't, plus I don't want to use them.
e that patented gizmo for cars it would probably work. Hell with PVs I coul d just put a thermostat in there and let it run all the time. But how bad i t the wear and tear factor here ?
That's why the no moving parts refrigeration + solar thermal could be cheap er than a conventional compressor + PV. The only moving part other than a blower would be for solar tracking.
Maybe they'll come out with an efficient thermo electric freezer that would eliminate all moving parts except the blower.
Bret Cahill
uld eliminate all moving parts except the blower."
Maybe. But right now IIRC a Peltier cooler for the microprocess in a comput er pulls about 70 watts, which is more than most of them pull unless under extremely heavy load.
But they do have them in some portable refrigerators or coolers. I do not k now what they pull but it must be quite a bit.
However running a compressor is not cheap either. Between friction and the inertia of the piston(s) that is a load. In fact that is the limiting facto r in a car engine except for valve float and that has been practically elim inates by new valve train designs with roller lifters and all that. We did a head job on an Ecotech and the valve train almost has no mass. /there is also something known as the desmodramic valve train which does not use spri ngs, at least not mainly. The cam is slotted and actually pulls the valves closed. However none of this gets rid of the problem of piston mass, which is the ultimate end of the horsepower curve.
There are also newer compressor designs like scroll compressors. Even thoug h at 1,750 RPMs the piston mass is not that much of a factor, it is still t here. Scroll compressors are only used in very large installations. That is when it makes a difference that is measurable.
One thing I wonder, why can't they just use a friggin DC motor in a sealed compressor in a car ? These wiggers etc. have car stereos that pull 60 or 7
0 amps. That should be enough. Also, could use PVs to run it when the car i s off and/or charge the battery. I mean the ones going down the road soundi ng like they are about to blow the trunk lid off.I bet it would be alot less of a hassle in a hybrid, which I imagine has a hell of alot beefier electrical system. And once we get to the point where totally electric cars are economically viable it seems that is the way to g o.
And electric cars are. Even though we can't do it now, it is the future. Yo u eliminate the transmission because the low end torque starts at zero RPM. One concept car had a motor for each wheel which eliminated any differenti al gearboxes further reducing weight. It might be a good idea to still have driveshafts to reduce unsprung weight, it depends on how small they can ma ke the motors.
Plus when it comes to AC, if there is no idle there would be no AC the way it is now.
They got pretty good insulating materials now, even without PV an electric car should handle instant AC. But it is going to take ten years to get elec tric cars into the mainstream. People simply canot afford them, the cheapes t Tesla is seventy grand.
You know, they had electric cars back in the early 1900s. I'll have to find the book on it, which was printed back then so it is definitely not bullsh it, of just the accelerator pedal switch. It had countless connectors on it as it rearranged the windings of the motor to achieve speed control. Of co urse now we got FETs, in fact banks of FETs like those RC cars they race ar ound with. And though it is hard to implement, brake recharging.
So with a system like that, electric AC is obviously the only way to go. Ho wever, we need a shitload of nuclear power plants do supply the electricity to charge them.
Even hear of thorium reactors ? There is enough thorium around to last a lo ng time. It has different properties and there is something about its opera ting temperature, makes it very attractive. However countries are not devel oping it because they do not want to lose the ability to make weapons grade fissibles. I shit you not, look it up on wiki. I forgot what the differenc e is but it has to do with the cooling process. As a thermodynamics gguy yo u know that heat will not really produce power, it is the differential of h eat. Take a Stirling engine and have both sides the same temperature and se e what doesn't happen. It is the differential that makes things happen.
Some scientists say thorium would be more efficient than what we got got. S ome also say it would be safer. But nobody is working on it because they wa nt the weapons grade breeded or centrifuged or whatever plutonium. And at l east the US wants the depleted uranium for use in ballistic weapons because it can pierce armor.
Nuclear is the only place I see that is dominated by the want for weapons. All other alternatives are simply not viable right now. The technology is n ot there yet. Oil companies are not addicted to oil, they are addicted to m oney. If anything was price comparable they would be selling it yesterday. In fact being publicly traded they are compelled to do so. If anyone ever f ound out they were hiding a viable alternative energy and not developing an d selling it because they love kissing that Saud's hand they could be accus ed of conflict of interest, accused of taking bribes, investigated, all the ir bank records examined. That is how business is when you are on the stock market. So they would have no choice.
So right now, the electric car is out. First of all the batteries are an en vironmental nightmare. Fuel cells are also a mess, we experimented with cra cking water and it is dangerous. And PV is simply not powerful enough to dr ive a car the way people want to drive. And though I do not know it because I am not a thermodynamics guy, for some reason nobody is getting into thor ium.
If all that was economically viable they would be selling it now.
As I recall "adsorbtion" and the pipes contain, ammonia, water, and hydrogen.
-- This email has not been checked by half-arsed antivirus software
I recall a Popular Science article from the mid-late '60s that featured a "direct air" car air conditioner, which supposedly got cold super fast and actually created frost on the air outlet.
Alas, as with most of the PS articles of the era, that was the last anyone heard of that "amazing new invention"...
Best regards,
Bob Masta DAQARTA v9.20 Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
as a
absorption and there is water in the system, so the material used must wit hstand that because you REALLY do not want a leak. Also there is a limit as to how far the condenser and evaporator can be, and they must be positione d to take advantage of gravity. I don't believe they had to be perfectly le vel, but that property made them unsuitable for some applications.
o.
OSHA thinks it's OK for the local produce coolers to use huge ammonia syste ms with a lot of fork lifts operating nearby. It's easy to tell a cooler f rom a warehouse in the desert by all the thick power lines coming from the substation on the adjacent lot.
Properly contained with a thermo fluid oil delivering the heat from the col lectors to the sealed refrigeration loop it could be made safe enough for h ousehold use, as safe as a Li-Ion PowerWall.
How costs would compare with PV powered refrigeration on any volume basis i s a big messy job but the parts for a PV prototype for motor vehicles are a ctually cheaper than to have a new conventional AC installed.
It would be best if first tried on a small cab PU with a topper. Glue PV c ells on the topper so the resale value of the truck doesn't drop too much, put the freezer and inverter in the bed.
Bret Cahill
Just google 'shopping' and 'solar air conditioner'.
or a while. The only thing I can think of is they shut off a valve and main tain the pressures in the refrigeration system. Automotive compressors have no problem starting under load. The house units have little starting torqu e so that would be impossible unless maybe you use a DC motor.
ll this contraption work ?". I am pretty sure it would be impractical with today's technology, but is the principle sound ?
. It is not friction that heats the air it is the fact that you are squeezi ng the same BTUs of heat into a much smaller space.
I heard a couple of truck-drivers talking about how marijuana-seed oil has a similar octane effect.
ElectronDepot website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.