Problem with Acid-Free Batteries

The cheaper batteries should be fine. (BTW there's acid in 'em. I,e standard lead-acid, it's just that it can't get out). Looks very much like the charger is the problem. Seems it'll need at least

24 hours to give a decent charge and it's not very inspiring to see a bland "DC 12V, 1000ma" on the label, when ideally it should really say something like "Super 3 step, sealed lead acid charger, 13.8V at 5Amp maximum". john (ps, the scooter 'charge indicator' can only ever be a rough and ready indication)

Hi OP,

Sorry to hear about this, it's really a raw deal it must be said. I'm afriad I don't have the technical know how to give solid factual information to you.

Would anyone here be able to comment if a regular car-battery could be used as substitute, and a regular lead acid charger? Thus beefing-up and simplifying up the entire arrangement in one go.

It really sounds like you are not charging the batteries properly. Can you say more about the stock batteries and the stock charger? You may have NiCads which charge differently than gel-cells. The scooter is a big load on batteries. You need good batteries designed for this type of duty, such as wheel chair, golf cart etc.type deep cycle batteries. They are not cheap. Tom

A brand and model for the scooter would help.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

The scooter I have uses "Glass mat sealed lead acid batteries. Interstate batteries makes them, but the ones I need are 55 AH and cost about $100 each.

Car batteries are not recommended for this use because they are not sealed. The fumes will corrode the frame and electronics. Also, car batteries are not designed for true, deep discharge/recharge cycles without a very short useful life.

I am looking into building a tiny trailer for mine, but to use larger batteries, plus a spare to power my laptop and a radio.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael, will you create enough RF with that radio to form a plasma ball around the antenna?

I saw a motorcycle (with trailer mounted generator) that did this...

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 01:16:37 +0100, in message , "techie_alison" scribed:

A "regular" car battery is going to be big and heavy. I don't know the specifics of three-wheel scooter batteries, but at 12ah each, they aren't going to be really big. A pair of motorcycle batteries might be a better analogy. BUT as John said, it probably isn't a problem with the batteries. The charger sounds like a dog. And as Tom said, maybe the cheap online batteries aren't the right fit either. If they are indeed deep-cycle, then auto and motorcycle batteries are right out.

OP says he has two 14-ah batteries, not mentioning scooter brand name. A pack of two 18-ah batteries I've found for USD $62.00, a single 35-ah for $47.50. Maybe these 10 dollar batteries he's found aren't such a good deal?

From the OP:

"Standby Use": Voltage Regulation: 13.5 - 13.8V; Initial current: 1.8A

"Cyclic Use": Voltage Rrgulation: 14.5 -14.9V; Initial Current: 3.6A

This tells me that the charger should be keeping the batteries floating at ~14.5V under normal use, and at ~13.5V when in storage. OP needs to find a friend with a volt meter who can measure the actual voltage when the scooter is on the charger. It bothers me that there is no setting on the charger he has that switches between the two modes (maybe a switch that says charge / float or something like that).

Here are my suggestions for OP:

Give us the part numbers and manufacturers for the batteries, both old and new, and the batter charger. Find someone who can measure the voltage on the batteries when they are connected to the charger. Get back to us.

My final questions for the OP: are you sure you are charging the scooter correctly? I don't think these are deep-cycle batteries, from my quick searching. This means that you should be putting the scooter on the charger whenever it is not in use, rather than waiting for the batteries to run dead before charging. Do you have instructions on how to charge the scooter?

Hi John:

This was one of my first "assumptions," but the company said that the charger will do fine and that I should charge for at least 4 hours. Well, that didn't do the trick. Still, even after charging for more than the four hour period, the "meter" that is on the "dashboard" of the scooter registers only 1/2 full, stepping up to almost 3/4, but only intermittantly.

So, you think that I should get a charger with more "juice" to it. This is, perhaps, the most logical advice I have received thus far.

While I am at it, however, I would like to ask you another question about these batteries. I have been told by "some people" that it is possible to "1/2" the batteries; this, according to those that made the comments, makes the batteries only 1/2 as strong as previously, and there is no means of reclaiming the "juice."

When I first bought the scooter (I was going to go through Medicare, but my "out of pocket expenses would have been more than what I paid for the scooter), they told me that I should "completely discharge the batteries" to the point that not even the headlight works. This, I have learned through many others, is the worse one can do to one of these batteries.

You may feel free to e-mail me at snipped-for-privacy@aol.com. Do you know where I might be able to buy the type of charger I really need?

Thanks,

Mark

John Jard> > Hi All:

Dear Techie_Alison:

I have always wondered about this. I wonder if anyone might know (as my scooter does operate using 12 volts, DC) if a regular auto battery might be a better way to go.

I would really appreciate any responses -- either to the group or to me, at snipped-for-privacy@aol.com

Mark

techie_alis> > Hi All:

Hi. I am the "OP" mentioned previously. I didn't mention the brand name of the scooter only because "I don't know." It's a commonly seen three-wheeled scooter with handlebars, anti-tip back (small) wheels, a headlight, etc. The batteries are housed under the seat, inside a small cabinet that is opened with a key that came with the scooter.

Here is the information about the charger and the batteries:

Charger: Universal Battery; Automatic Sealed Lead-Acid Battery Charger. E181260 (this number is directly above the "UL" seal. Class 2 Battery Charger; Model 12BC1000D-1; Input: 120V 60Hz, 25W Output: DC 12V, 1000mA. There are two lights on the front of the charger, one red for "charging" and one green, which illiuminates when the battery is (theoretically) charged. There is nothing else on the charger.

Battery: It states on the bottom that the battery unit is made in China. Clearly, the "Company name" is sort of "crypted," in that it states the following on the one side of the battery: UB121120, Universal Battery. On the bottom, opposite of the side where it states from where the battery originates, is a "backwards" R, followed by and sort of connected to a "U." Under that, the following number is listed: MH20567. All of the other information was included in my first posting to this list.

I would like to know if anyone knows of a "web site" from where I might be able to purchase the "Super 3 step, sealed lead acid charger, 13.8V at 5 Amp, maximum." Does anyone know of a reputable company?

"Anyone" following this specific problem that I posted can feel free to e-mail me at snipped-for-privacy@aol.com. It is sometimes somewhat difficult for me to sit for a time period that is consistent with checking through the list.

Thanks,

Mark

Alan B wrote:

On 5 Aug 2006 06:54:17 -0700, in message , "mea305" scribed:

Curiouser and curiouser.

This appears to be your baby:

or

Certainly not what I'd expect for USD $69.00, much more realistic is the $19.99 asked in the referenced ad. My cheap 30 dollar motorcycle battery charger from Auto Zone has much more functionality and capability than that item. Sorry about that.

China is a big supplier of batteries, and the numbers you give are dead-ends. I'm curious about something. You first said 'when I finally got a little wiser and got online, I found that the "same batteries" cost me $14.10 each.' How could you possibly order batteries online and not know what they are? The probability is very high that these fourteen dollar batteries are not a good match for your scooter.

So I think you have two problems: improper batteries and a weak charger. It's possible that if you get the right batteries, that charger will work, but if you really are dependent on this machine, I'd get a better one.

Read these, they should help you:

Index item number two of the second link tells you that you need deep-cycle batteries. That site also sells batteries and chargers. I've never used the company, so I can't vouch for their reputation.

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 07:53:28 -0700, in message , Alan B scribed:

Uh-oh. Clicking on the alternate photo in that ad shows that there is a custom plug interface for that charger. You're not going to be happy with the work involved in matching a different charger to your scooter. You're pretty much stuck with the charger[1], so you'd better get the right batteries!

[1] Unless you know someone who is a good electrician, which you must not, since you are asking questions of this group instead.

Mark.

(I only see about 80% of the posts so someone may already have supplied more relevant info). My 'take' on it is coming from currently testing various sealed Lead-acid technologies (and their charging) for a particular 1.5kW design job. (Nearest I've got to 'mobility' applications, has been designing golf cart controllers).

(I've not come across that 'halving' phrase but it most probably the observed palpable result of inadequate rechargings.)

Yes. The charger needs to have more oomph in it (a damned sight more!).

You've 24 Ampere-hours worth of batteries there and they need recharging in a manageable amount of time otherwise it's pointless having the scooter. A 'typical use' recharge-to-full rate, might normally be suggested as

1.2Amps (at about 13.8V) for 20 hours. This length of time is actually hopeless for your application and I'd imagine 8 hours as a more friendly value. But ... the existing charger you have is 1 amp max, so as a theoretical minimum, needs 24 hours to do it's job and with the usual losses, more likely 36-48 hours. An 8 hour charge is slightly 'fast' for sealed lead-acids but a charger rated for 4 or 5 amps will do the job OK.

It's very important that the charger is bought specially for use with sealed-lead-acid batteries. The only ones worth buying are those modern ones that offer a 2 or 3 'step'/'stage' charging regime. These can actually recharge a battery up to near 100% capacity. Use a 13.8V 'float' type charger and you'll be lucky ever to recharge to 60% capacity.

As a general rant, I'm constantly surprised that supposed specialist suppliers, (example that scooter company) can talk so much bollocks to their customers and yet still make a good living. No ... that 1 amp charger is no good. No ... a 4 hours recharge is bad news and may be OK for a dozen recharges before the batteries are buggered. No ... lead acids absolutely loathe being discharged beyond something like 10V. Hope of use. john

I'm not going to transmit, it is just to listen to the news or some music while waiting for an event to start. Too bad I gave away that 12 HP riding mower engine with electric start. I could have added an alternator to charger the batteries, as needed. :)

I have to arrive a couple hours early to get a handicap parking spot at the veterans park, and I want something to keep me busy while I wait, and then wait afterwards for the traffic to thin out. The laptop will let me work on my Veterans News website so I can upload the updates as soon as I get home, along with the newest pictures.

Gee, if I add a fourth battery I can run a small cooler for cold drinks. Now, I wonder if I can find a couple small electric screw jacks to add a convertible top for the really sunny days? It will probably take four to let it fold small enough not to be in the way when its not in use. :)

BTW, I turned 54 today.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Happy birthday michael.

Mike:

Just out of pure curiosity, where (general area) do you live in Central Florida? I am in Micanopy, right outside of Gainesville, and, in fact, between Ocala and Gainesville.

And -- this is to the entire group -- by the way, I found the correct charger and it is being shipped as I type.

I want to thank all those who responded to my posts. This has been an extremely frustrating situation. Without the scooter operating, I am almost without mobility. I can walk with a cane, but only (at most) ten feet.

Mark

My deepest sympathy for getting old so fast :) ;) ;)

I am between Ocala and Belleview. I pass through your area when I ride the DAV shuttle van to the Gainsville VA hospital a couple times a year. I hope the charger takes care of your problems. If you end up needing different batteries, Interstate Batteries has a distribution center in Gainsville.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I\'ve got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Thanks, but I need more than sympathy! ;-)

-- Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to prove it. Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell Central Florida