OT: Water Pipe Insulation

As Jim said, he lives in Arizona, his coldest is just before sunrise most likely many hours since anyone has caused any water to flow* through the pipes. The water has had many hours to reach ambient temperature. Blowing ambient temperature across it at 15mph isn't going to change the temp. He needs to put a heat tape on it, with a thermostat and insulate around the whole thing to hold the heat in. It's not worth hoping there is enough heat stored in the ground to prevent freezing. Two winters ago I started water dripping in the outdoor plumbing to an ice machine, it wasn't enough. I split the side of a 1/4" copper tubing to one of them and a pipe got pushed loose inside the machine. Pain in the butt fixing things in tight areas, just for one cold night. I'm in NW Fl.

Did you notice there is a new and an old windchill chart. Physics changed!

Mikek

• Especially sense Jim has his frequent night time trips to the Jon problem solved.

I have my tank fill valve set such that it takes about a half an hour to fill the tank back up.

If you do not have a household full of folks full of shit first thing in the morning, you do not need a friggin' 30 second tank refill event spiking all the pipes with the valve toggles. If you do need a re-flush sooner, just reach down and open the valve back up for that fill event, and then reset it to "return you to your normally scheduled programming".

Easy Greasy

Other things I do is I 'drip fill' my transport vessel that I use between my tap and my water purification filter tank. There is nearly always a trickle going, and nothing wasted, save what little bit more evaporates due to the long open tank fill sequences.

Here is a neat trick... A 7 second zap in the microwave of your two slices of bread before toasting them heats them on the inside first, which makes the entire toast session faster, allowing you to cycle your toaster faster and still have the same exterior browning and interior heat.

That one should make the Popular Mechanics' tip page, if they still had one.

I also have ways to save industrial businesses and manufacturers billions of dollars a year.

What I lack is a podium and a forum.

Like the idiot "Hulk"'s idiot son said... "I need a real-ality TV show".

Yeah... I could use that. Give you guys more to laugh at, right? The real-ality comedian.

We could start off the first week with at least one episode devoted to "the light bulb in the box 'trick'", which you all came to hate me over. Right, Keith?

You forgot the esoteric AGW effect >:-} ...Jim Thompson

I do not think there is a pressure at which it would at that temp.

Water deep in the ocean even far colder then freezing does not (salt and movement related though), but hotter than boiling does not boil either (pressure related).

I do not think merely pressurizing it would freeze it. Put some in a nitrogen vessel for welding before filling it, and even at 3000 psi, it is still liquidous inside... at that temp.

Ambient temp only matters if there is a settling period included.

Does water ejected into space instantly freeze, or does it have to lose the heat it has with it first?

No... It instantly gassifies. I'll bet it still has all of its latent heat though. Pack it all back together and it is warm. Compressed air isn't hot from the friction of the compressor. It is hot because the heat of a cubic yard of air was just placed into a space the size of 27 cubic inches.

So, above freezing ambient water at high pressure, is still water. At low pressure, becomes a gas.. at 1 atm? Nope... still "above" freezing "point".

It's that "table of elements" thing they spent the last couple centuries getting down. Not sure atmospheric pressure matters in some of those constants. Isn't the melting point for Gold in space the same as it is for when it is here, sitting under all this air?

Yep... you're right.

The water isn't fixed at 35F, dummy. Go back to your 555s, one trick pony.

That's the funniest thing I've read in months!

You guys are not on the same train. Carefully worded statements of different effects create useless arguments. And it's turning nasty.

I'd agree that water at 35F won't freeze. And that blowing 35 degree air on a pipe won't make it freeze. But there's evidence that you can start with water at 35F and an ambient air temperature above freezing... insulate the water from the air and enhance radiation into clear night sky and make it freeze. You don't want wind. It's a solar funnel cooker run backwards into clear night sky.

So you can continue the gunfight between a bunch of blind men shooting in different directions... Or pick something common to discuss.

I wanted to experiment with the solar cooker idea, but it's often so cloudy here that it wouldn't be much use. Anybody made one work?

PV=nRT

Phase diagrams:

...Jim Thompson

Evaporative cooling. Remember I said, in a previous post "pipe/vessel" versus "free standing water".

(I have studied (and experimented) extensively with evaporative coolers preceding the condenser of air-conditioning systems. If you have the space to set it up, evaporative cooling can do marvelous things.) ...Jim Thompson

Wind chill does not work if there is no evaporation. Blowing 5 mph air at 35F across a steel or plastic pipe, is not going to create any cooling below 35F. In order to produce wind chill, the pipe has to be wet, where the surface water evaporates and therefore becomes cooler. Last time I checked, steel and plastic do not evaporate. Even 100 mph air at 35F across a steel or plastic pipe will produce nothing lower than a 35F pipe temperature. As long as there's no evaporation, the temperature will go no lower than 35F, and wind chill has no effect.

If the humidity is high enough, and the temperature drops below the dew point, there will be condensation on steel pipes. That will produce some wind chill cooling, but I don't think enough to freeze the water in the pipe.

If there was such a thing as wind chill cooling without evaporation, I could cool a dry heat sink with a fan, and end up with a heat sink temperature that's lower than the intake air temperature. Too bad that doesn't work, or I could make millions on the idea.

The reason that you (not your pipes) feel colder when the wind is blowing is the heat loss from the evaporation of sweat from the skin.

PVC pipe and Copper pipe, which one is more vulnerable to freezing weather? My house is all copper pipe on the water supply line, which survives freezing temperatures better than PVC pipe.

Newsgroups are so damn frustrating... don't bother to read/snip/swing/miss/head off in another direction... Another shot into nowhere. If you want to discuss evaporative cooling, we could do that. But that's not what I suggested. The funnel cooker fridge has zero to do with evaporation. It's all about radiation...like it says in the paragraph I wrote above. Newsgroups are so damn frustrating...

An array of black PVC (further painted matte black) in a glass covered 'hot box' following the sun, piped into the line feeding your hot water tank saves a lot as well. You can also use such an array to heat your pool water, in climes and at times where that is desired.

In the case of a pipe, heat is flowing out of the building and out of the ground. It's not like a vehicle sitting on rubber tires in the wind.

Best regards, Spehro Pefhany

Bye Jack

Capt. Kirk responds... "These are not the tomes you are looking for..."

I don't run with morons like you, no.

You're competeing with AlwaysWrong, OneTrickPony.