Driving LEDs with a battery pack

Actually, it's a beautiful piece of work. The Joules per unit time (power) is independent of the inductance of the transformer, so you don't mess things up if you wind it too many times or too few. All that affects is the frequency of operation. A simple resistor sets the power. Just a very few components, too. It's sweet.

The point is that saturation isn't required and will actually waste power. So I think that saturation would be a problem, actually.

Assume the collector winding saturates the core. This happens as Ic is rising on a V/L ramp and, for purposes you are putting it to, occurs by definition well __before__ Ic/Ib gets anywhere near the beta limit of the BJT. So let's say this happens when Ib=Ic, just to keep it easy. So the BJT is in deep saturation, still. And the core suddenly decides "that's it, I'm tapped out!" At that point, it isn't the BJT, but the core that decides the voltage across it must cease. So the collector winding voltage goes to zero, suddenly, which means Vce on the BJT suddenly rises to the fully battery voltage -- meaning VERY BAD dissipation. You are right. The base winding also goes to zero volts and the base current takes a hit. But it goes to about 1/2 the earlier value. Since Ic doesn't change, but only Vce did, the beta is now 2. Which means the BJT can still support the Ic required (which hasn't yet changed -- the collector winding is zero volts, not negative, just the Vce has jumped up.)

At this point, we see the BJT with beta 2 (which is still deep saturation) and a base current that is 1/2 of what it just was but is still well more than enough. So the BJT's Vce times Ic gets dissipated by the BJT, which is now heating up big-time. (Beta capability actually rises with temperature increases, memory serving.)

If inductors were perfect (superconducting?), I suspect things would just sit there with beta=2, the BJT heating up until it reaches some stable point, Ic remaining fixed, Ib remaining fixed, and that would be that. But the resistance in the inductor is instead gradually (slowly) eating up the field's energy, causing a voltage reversal... probably on the order of timing less than a second but not nearly at the design frequency rate. This opposes the battery voltage to the base, of course, and the whole thing does wind down. But I suspect that saturation is NOT a good thing here because of all this. In other words, it is not "a friend" to the process. It's to be avoided.

But I've only two or three weeks ago started studying magnetics design for the first time. And I may have something wrong. But that's the way it looks to me.

I think in a profoundly different mode. But yes.

I don't think so. Read what I wrote and see if you can find fault with it. I'm curious about learning this stuff better.

Well, I didn't take your starting point so conclusions from it still don't flow from it, for me.

Actually, I think it is an incredible arrangement.

Look. You can design this entirely with the idea of just knowing how much current on the other end you require. Knowing the current, you can compute the peak current you want in the collector winding. It is just:

Ipeak = Iout*[2*(Vout+Vd-Vceon)/(Vbattery-Vceon)]

(These assume that diode I suggested to the OP, so Vd is the forward voltage of it during BJT-off times. Vceon and Vceoff will be rough numbers used and aren't all that critical. I use Vceon=0.1 [as an average value between 0.0V and 0.2V during on-time] and use Vceoff of between 0.4V and 0.7V depending on just how big Ic happens to be.)

Notice that there is no inductance here, no base resistor value, etc. There is a pure number ratio (bracketed) times the desired Iout. Very simple and independent of a lot of stuff you don't want to have to worry about. This makes design easy.

Then, you compute the inductance of the collector winding. At this point, you need to know some idea about the desired frequency. The beauty of this is that you can now worry about volt-seconds and that saturation problem. To avoid volt-second problems, choose a faster frequency. The frequency will have NO effect on the power/Iout that is delivered. You get to choose it independently and not worry about its effects on Iout. Wonderful, for designing. So to avoid huge volt-second figures, pick a frequency that is high. But to avoid dealing with BJT capacitance and charge mobility issues, choose a frequency that is low. Between these is a nice region in the tens of kHz... so I like 50kHz as a good place to be. At this point, compute L: (Vbattery-Vceon)*(Vout+Vd-Vbattery) L = ------------------------------------- (Vout+Vbattery-Vceon)*Ipeak*frequency

At this point, Rbase can also be calculated: Rbase = beta*[N*(Vbattery-Vceoff)+Vbattery-Vbeon]/Ipeak

Here, N is the winding ratio, with higher values occuring when the base winding has more turns. Normally, N=1. Also, beta is selected from the datasheet at the value for Ic=Ipeak, roughly. Also, Vbeon is picked up from the datasheet (or estimated.)

Your peak base current isn't simply the Ipeak divided by the chosen beta, here. It's more like:

Ibaseavg = [N*(Vbattery-Vceon)+Vbattery-Vbeon]/Rbase

Rbase is determined using a higher Vceoff calculation because the value of beta won't apply well, if applied using the lower Vceon.

But with the freewheeling diode and a capacitor, there is no need. And that arrangement provides a nice smooth current. The issue with pulsing is that the LED voltages rise with high currents flowing and this wastes energy uselessly. What the diodes really want is a steady DC at the right level, not huge pulses of current. Best efficiency is not necessarily at the nominal current for the LEDs, but it usually isn't too far from it. Pulsing with duty cycles not unlike 1:10 means

10-fold current increases and that is way past their efficiency curve peak. It wastes power. I think the diode/cap almost suggests itself.

On the surface, it seems easier and better to just add a diode and cap than to wind another winding in a tiny bead.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan
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1mm!!!! Can't you just desolder them out of their through holes? I get enough lead length for utility even when they are smack flush with the board!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

I was just re-reading the original web page and it says "Don't use anything other than plain cheap vanilla ferrite, since any other type will reduce efficiency."

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Reply to
fungus

I just ordered a bunch of them from him - the specs are way better then the ones I've got here.

Reply to
fungus

I hadn't read this, but I think I've at least alluded to it in posts on this thread. The problem, if I got it right, is energy storage. Ferrites have little tiny air gaps (okay, not air, but about the same in effect) between granules with iron in them. The energy gets stored there, in the gaps, for release when the BJT turns off. Straight iron cores won't store anything much. So bad news. The other desirable effect, though, is the voltage aiding impact of the base winding. For that, iron core would be great. But there isn't that much need for power transfer to the base, just voltage mostly, so ferrite works great here for that reason AND does the main job of storing energy in the gaps. If I got it right, of course.

By the way, now you can see just how tiny it can be!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Ok, I made the "1mm" up but they're only going to be as long as the thickness of the PCB.

Reply to
fungus

I'm looking at one I __just__ removed (I've got two TV set boards siting in a box waiting for harvesting.) It's long enough to solder to. And it is free!

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

That's the page you get if you type "joule thief" into google.

So really he's not saying "use ferrite", he's saying "don't use iron"?

I just found something about the circuit which is confusing the hell out of me. I mentioned it yesterday but nobody spotted the problem...

If I measure the current going through the LEDs it says

102mA, but... they're connected in series so shouldn't it say "20mA"?

I assume it's not really 102mA because the LEDs aren't dead, the signal is flat DC thanks to the capacitor/diode so what's going on?

Reply to
fungus

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:59:42 -0700 (PDT), fungus wrote:

I think I'd read it some time back, as well.

I guess so. Iron switches alignments really easy (low reluctance.) Since it is easy to do, no energy gets used to do it and there's no energy there to be had later on. What it is really good for is passing along those flux changes rigidly so that power is transferred without losing much along the way. They make GREAT transformers -- especially at lower frequencies before their electrical conductance (low resistance along with low reluctance) allows eddy currents to become a problem. They "transfer" power efficiently. However, while you DO want a voltage to show up on the base winding and while iron would do that for you really well, it doesn't _also_ store energy for you. So when the BJT turns off and the collector winding is supposed to be delivering energy to your LEDs from all that "stored energy" somewhere... there won't be any because the iron didn't store it for you. It just tried to transfer it, had the base winding create a reverse flux change to oppose it, a tiny bit of power got transferred to the base in order to add some current there (but not much), and nothing got packed away because iron doesn't store up anything. On the other hand, ferrite has these air-like gaps in it and while it isn't as good as iron at transferring power to the base winding, you don't need it to be that good. What you need is some nooks and crannies to store up energy and the ferrite will do that for you. Also, because there isn't much of an electrical connection between granules with iron in them in the ferrite (isolated by the 'glue' so to speak), eddy currents can't really flow much so they are really good at higher frequencies where that could become a problem. For this situation, ferrite is a very nice fit on every score.

It's probably right. (Unless you are averaging.) You should be seeing high peak currents in there. But only for a short part of a total duty cycle. Are you averaging?

I think it really _is_ 102mA, but only for part of the time. That allows the LEDs to cool down in between times and your eyes perceive the average value not the peak -- at these rates, anyway.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

My recollection of messing with the joule thief a few years ago was that it is transistor saturation, not core saturation, and that Vbatt is the key. In essence, the base wants to drive the transistor harder, the transistor is capable, but Vbatt prevents any further increase in Ic.

BTW - I made one using an air core (we can eliminate core saturation from that one), and several using ferrite cores where core sat was perhaps possible. But again, my recollection is that it was transistor saturation due to the low battery voltage. I suppose that may be too simplistic - you could get into the Vdrop within the battery's internal resistance (Rbatt) and Rbatt limiting the current through the coil ...

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

Which is ALL I've been saying here. That's why I disagree with greg on this.

Actually, Ic rises until Ic/Ib exceeds the BJT beta at that Ic.

If you read some of my longer postings here (it seems you have not), you will see a VERY DETAILED description. Not to mention the equations I've provided. So I have a pretty thorough understanding I'm applying here.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Do you remember how many windings, roughly, you used then?

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Uhhh - if your LEDs are in series, that is 106mA through each of them. In the unlikely case they are in parallel, you have to measure the current through each one individually - they do not necessarily conduct the same amount of current. And if they need to be in parallel, each should have its own current limiting resistor (or some other means of controlling the current).

That aside, I'm glad to hear you got good results with your joule thief!

Ed

Reply to
ehsjr

What about "iron powder" beads. All the ones in the PC power supply look like these:

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Reply to
fungus

FWIW It will work with an air core ! I tried parallel bifilar turns on a small (5mm) tube ! It oscillated, but only without a load. A pile wound bifilar pair worked much better. Putting in a ferrite core vastly improved the output.

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.
Reply to
Baron

This page seems to explain the difference but I can't decide if it's better or worse for a joule thief.

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Reply to
fungus

The colour is just paint !

Arn't they just ! Very very useful. Try passing coins between a pair. You might note something interesting !

--
Best Regards:
                     Baron.
Reply to
Baron

I'd stay away from iron powder and stay with ferrite ('iron oxide.') Not because I know why, though. I'd like to hear someone who knows this stuff talk about the two options in this case. I'd learn something.

My mind thinks "um, how much effective air gap is there in iron powder cores?" But the permeability seems lower than ferrite and they are often used in very high frequency cases. So that makes me think the granules must be isolated and that there must be significant energy storage available in them. But I just plain don't know.

So you really do raise a good point for me. I feel unable to give any useful thoughts on this point. I'm still learning, too.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Here's a link:

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It seems to pretty much say that powdered iron is fine, as I read it.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

ke-design.pdf

I read it and it meant nothing... :-S

But ... there's a line on the second page which seems to say it doesn't make much difference between 25kHz and 75kHz. We're aiming at 50kHz so I guess we're OK.

I've got three of them so I hope so....

Reply to
fungus

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