current mirrors and LED matrix driving

Okay. So I've been considering current mirror design and, in particular, the idea of applying resistors on either or both of the emitters. (I'm ignoring the Wilson mirror, for now. So just the basic 2-bjt current mirror.) For now, I'm just trying to see if I can simulate in mathematics form what a spice program would achieve given a model and a situation. I think I've got it nailed down but I'd like to expose some of my thinking for a reality check.

One of the first things that showed it's ugly head is the ohmic Re' of a bjt. The ohmic Rb' was something I'd already thought about before (seemed more obvious to me at the time.) But what I hadn't recognized right away was that Re' is multipled by (beta+1) when reflected to the base and even small values of Re' then look a lot bigger than Rb' and will dominate the calcs. (This is BEFORE adding in an actual Re as a separate circuit element.)

This didn't become an issue when using a simple mirror, because both bjts had about the same currents in them. So the reflected values created the same voltage drops. But it IS an issue when I decide to use an external Re in one emitter. Then, there are significantly different currents and I have to take this into account to gain any useful prediction.

One interesting note is that some of the bjt models I have don't even specify Re' and LTspice defaults it to 0 if it isn't given. For example, the 2N4403 in the builtin LTspice models doesn't supply Re'. But it does supply Rb'. However, the 2N2907 model does supply both. Hmm. Can't trust anything.

So for example, with Rb'=10 (commonly slapped onto models) and Re'=.2 (say, the 2N2907 just mentioned), and beta=250 for that device, I get a reflected value of about 50 ohms, which is 5 times larger than Rb'. So it can't be ignored in some situations (as where I may use one emitter resistor.)

The other thing is that when operating a mirror with different currents, heating will be very different in the two. Even on a common substrate, let alone with discrete devices. Most especially if the output bjt is supplying a lot more current and with a collector that may be causing a large Vce drop, besides. And at -2mv/C for Vbe, and 10X Ic for every 60mV change, this makes it almost impossible to consider if there isn't a closed loop where the actual Ic is monitored and used to control the current via feedback. Which reduces its attractiveness.

I find I'm able to manually (with a calculator) replicate LTspice results to about 3-5 parts per thousand over a very wide range of circuits and bjt devices. It's iterative, in the sense that I have to repeatedly do an estimate and plug that back in. (I couldn't develop a closed equation.) So I at least think I've got that part nailed down.

But is the above thinking about right? Or is there something else I've missed about this topology that I failed to mention above? Seems that a Wilson mirror helps a little bit with the different heating issue (by returning the Vce on the output side bjt to something much smaller) but at the expense of more headroom required and another device.

Anyway, interested in thoughts, points, etc. I can see why these are much more useful in ICs than discrete. Most especially if there is any differential currents involved.

My thoughts here are about driving an LED matrix. I an considering the idea of using an external mirror (but with gain) so that the 5916 can drive it with smaller controlled currents. The problem seems to be that I get nothing from the exercise, as different heating will unravel the whole idea and force me to figure out a feedback scheme, which then adds further discrete device complexity and adds still more headroom I don't want to waste.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan
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You're perhaps trying to make the problem too difficult. Take a look at this old posting that compared current mirror styles...

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As for applying emitter resistors, that is for offset mismatch correction (IS mismatch). A good rule of thumb is to drop...

10*kT/q or about 250mV in the emitter resistors.

Retract from thinking re and rb and think a logarithmic device. ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
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I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Thanks. Looking at it now.

I'm looking at them because I want to use the 5916 and set it for perhaps 10mA and use the mirror to multiply that to

100mA. I do NOT want to pull 100mA to get 100mA -- terrible waste, besides not solving the problem.

I did both. The Vbe = kT/q * ln( I / Is ) part is what I use when considering both Vbe's. The Re' and Rb' are just for the additional drops I have to account for, in addition. It actually gets me to below half a % error over a wide range vs spice, using both terribly bad and somewhat okay bjt models. So I've got the math down right.

The problem is.. discrete mirrors don't seem to help with my problem. I think temperature is going to kill me and make me do feedback I don't want to add. I don't see a temperature run in your pdf. And none of them include current gain. But I enjoy seeing the plots vs beta.

I'd like to set things up so that I can control maximum LED current (I will PWM down from that reference) on an individual column or row basis and dissipate power, doing it. I will try and target the rails closely, so that power loss in the control circuit is as low as reasonable. But I want the flexibility to waste power in some circumstances (don't want to bother with a switcher, for example, and decide in some events that some single available rail for R, G, and B is more important than the loss of power at the current sink/source. The 5916, even if I'm wrong about having only

750mV at 100mA (times 8), and it can handle a little more than that, still won't be enough. I want to have a design that can go to 160mA (20mA times 8) and still have at least 2.8V of dissipative margin at the sink/source. (That comes from considering a +5V rail and 2V RED LEDs with only 200mV for the other side switch.) That's near half a watt, each. 4 watts total for x8. Not hard with discrete parts, power wise. Just that temperature will murder me, I think.

This is bugging me.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Those are all 1:1 mirrors, but still some temperature effects if lots of dissipation.

Multiplicative mirrors are nasty when done with discrete devices.

For accuracy you're probably stuck with feedback.

How many are on at once?

I'd give you some video chips I designed, but the company went belly-up before it got to foundry :-( ...Jim Thompson

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| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

There is very a slight difference in Ic, but mostly I think your comment comes from the Early effect for the standard mirror. In the case of the Wilson, though, Vce between the two should be much closer, right? So not too bad. Or am I missing something here?

Yeah. It's all bad, it seems.

Okay. So maybe a tenth ohm on the switch side against a convenient reference (like ground) so that I can amplify and measure it. Darn.

As many as 8, as little as zero.

When I worked on the optical intensity and color calibration setup for OSRAM (mostly coding, some optical bench work), I got to see just a little bit into the design issues they contended with. Those 16x16 modules were HEAVY -- massive heat sink on the back side and steel plate that the LEDs were set into. They also used 6 ICs with lots of pins to handle the RGB module. And they used custom ICs for this. 100W per module capacity. Three separate rails for each color with the rails custom designed externally to power them. They were used in 20kW panels by an OEM customer.

I'm not trying to get to that point. :) For starters, it's not yet RGB (and may not be for some time.) And its 1/4th as many LEDs right now and actually 1/12th because I'm not using RGB. And less peak current besides. And for the first one, it's still less because its 5x7, not 8x8 (though I want room to grow quickly into 8x8.)

But say potentially 5W dissipated in control circuitry in some cases (with fixed 5V supplies without a switcher) and another 4-5W in the LEDs? This is looking really ugly (with BJTs, anyway.) And I don't know, offhand, of any ICs to use that can support that on a x8 basis, either. I doubt I can bond enough heavy iron to the 5916 for still air at that power. Even with the new datasheet numbers where it specifies about 40 C/W to the topside package surface, and assuming a perfect heatsink with 0 C/W, 5W will push the junctions +200C over ambient.

And I darned well don't want to use 1:1 current gain in a discrete mirror to get back some thermal stability and lose the feedback requirement! What a waste of power that would be. So it's back to feedback, I think. Much as I hate the idea.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Besides improving offset match, the "ballast" emitter resistors dramatically improve Early effect... and also mediate thermal effects... IF the duty cycle is not too high.

My video chip was 25:1 mirror-ratio, but PWM'd, 48 outputs, ALL CMOS ;-) ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Well, darn it. With all these FAB brokers around, you should be able to easily get a single wafer slipped in there for me. I'll supply the hack saw. ;)

Thanks for the time, Jim. Appreciated.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Why is the characteristic for the bare type shifted higher in the 3rd (vs the first) graph?

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Reply to
Tom Del Rosso

I don't know... must be an anomaly >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

Nope. The "odd" curve is versus _BF_, at _12V_ VCE. ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

[and apparently this is for LED drive}

There's two clean solutions: one, is to use a mismatched pair of sense resistors, and an op amp to balance the mirror; a single transistor (bipolar if you care about low voltage biasing, MOS if there's enough drive swing) passes the high current.

The other, is to use multiple power supplies (low voltage one to drive the input side of the current mirror, high voltage on output side) and (for instance) series-connecting the LEDs so the ratio can be near 1:1 and still get most of the power to the load.

Thermal effects, as you know, make 100mA mirrors somewhat inaccurate; that might not matter, if you can tolerate 20% errors. If 100% errors are OK, it doesn't matter at all. :-)

Reply to
whit3rd

An opamp per mirror is... more than I want to do if I can find any other approach. But I'll look at that, too.

I'm not yet sure I follow that. I can't series connect the LEDs, since that would force those in the series to be either ON or OFF together. I need individual control of each one. But I'll digest this more and see if I can make sense of the words, later.

Somewhat?? If I'm driving a 1:10, and if Vce on the output side can be 2.8V, thermal will kill me. We're talking -2mV per C here. 30C difference puts me at a thermal driven delta=60mV and that is a factor of 10 in Ic by itself, let alone the programmed 1:10 assuming they are at the same temp. And since I can't, a priori, say which LEDs are on or for how long they will be needed in active displays, my thermal design is ... essentially undesignable. So I can't factor that into my 1:10.

If I could get to within 20%, I'd probably call that good. But I can't, so far as I can see.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

Sounds like only 8 OpAmps, then a switch matrix, if, as you said, a maximum of 8 on at once?

...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

I'm not excluding it. It may be the best way to go. I'm just letting my mind rove a little longer before I settle down.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Kirwan

I do that a lot. Drives some clients nuts >:-} ...Jim Thompson

--
| James E.Thompson                                 |    mens     | 
| Analog Innovations                               |     et      | 
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems  |    manus    | 
| Phoenix, Arizona  85048    Skype: Contacts Only  |             | 
| Voice:(480)460-2350  Fax: Available upon request |  Brass Rat  | 
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com |    1962     | 
              
I love to cook with wine.     Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Reply to
Jim Thompson

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